I agree with April 13, 2013 at 1:14 AM. I've got a student right now (in my NTT position) who is interested in grad school. It would be unethical to say: "It's easy to get a job. Go for it!" But it would be equally inappropriate to say: "Don't go. You will never get a job." While I'm by no means convinced that this student has what it takes to get into, let alone through, grad school, she should be allowed to find her own way. If an undergrad asks about the job market, I think it's appropriate to be honest. But only to discourage people out of hand is overstepping one's role.
"If an undergrad asks about the job market, I think it's appropriate to be honest. But only to discourage people out of hand is overstepping one's role."
I vehemently disagree. In all my years of teaching (over 25 now), only once or twice has an undergrad major actually asked me about the job market in classics. They see employed professors all the time and they never meet the people who don't get hired. They are invariably shocked and horrified when they hear that each college-level job opening in Classics has well over 100 and often as many as 200 applicants. It is absolutely NOT overstepping our role to tell them this up front. Not to volunteer this information would be a shocking failure in our duty to our majors -- even if they don't ask (perhaps especially if they don't ask).
Of course, some of them will want to go to graduate school despite the horrific job market. And once they've made that decision, of course we should (and I do) help them in any way we can, with recommendation letters, advice about programs, etc. But we owe it to them to give them a clear view of just what the market is like now so that they can make their decision about grad school with some idea of what they'll find when they have the doctorate in hand.
And (on a slightly different topic) we should do everything in our power to discourage them from even considering taking out loans for grad school. My conversations with them about this point boil down to: "If you get funding, and you are realistic about employment prospects on the other end, then go with my blessing. But DO NOT borrow for grad school. Just don't do it."
Excellent advice. Unfortunately I don't have the right skillez or I won't still be applying for jobs. But I've seen a few faux-listings in my time, and this looks like one to me. I hope I'm wrong, of course.
Look, I'd hardly call it a business. Unless you think sitting on a street corner begging for spare change is a business. Sure, some people get famous doing that. But most people just end up dead before their time. Like Classics!
In reply to Bibulus, I'd say that's a promoting-the-visitor-to-TT ad, as you may have suspected. But of course we all have the materials all ready to go, so what's a few extra $$$ postage here or there?
Well, what if they actually do interviews? And what if -- god forbid, since I hate interviews -- I get one? Then I've wasted a whole day of my life (or more) that I'll never get back.
To be clear, I am not all at opposed to promoting a hardworking VAP, especially one who has been roped into departmental service. Not at all opposed. But can't we as a profession manage to effect such a promotion without wasting the time and energy of innocent bystanders?
To be clear, I am not all at opposed to promoting a hardworking VAP, especially one who has been roped into departmental service. Not at all opposed. But can't we as a profession manage to effect such a promotion without wasting the time and energy of innocent bystanders?
April 16, 2013 at 9:34 AM
I heartily agree with this, even if I do sometimes resent the "insider" for getting what s/he deserves! A less "open" process would help those of us who don't have a shot to concentrate our attention on positions that are actually available to us.
Well, obviously, the department would communicate directly with its internal candidate in order to make sure that both parties were in agreement. If the insider wanted to move elsewhere, I don't see a department running a search that actively pursued that individual.
Also, that concern does not really apply in this market. Your VAP is not moving elsewhere. Your VAP is extremely lucky to have won a position once. The chances of her getting another one are ridiculously slim.
What happens if the department doesn't run a search and the internal candidate takes a job someplace else?
You're missing a key point about this ad: the timing. By April, the internal candidate will have likely already found another position or run out of better options. If they thought the former might happen, they would have advertised in the fall (or so you would think). If the incumbent had left unexpectedly, they would have probably advertised for another VAP. Thus this looks like a pro forma search to me, but I've been wrong before.
You're missing a key point about this ad: the timing.
I was responding to the general proposition that institutions shouldn't run searches when they're hoping to hire existing temporary faculty; the details of this ad aren't pertinent.
However, the former point that we do not live in a world where candidates get choices is valid.
Institutions that act as if candidates are going to do anything other than bleed out and die for $2 and the chance to maintain an affiliation are delusional.
And that applies even in a place like Lubbock, which is a shit town if there ever was one. I would sacrifice my firstborn for the chance to be surrounded by hundreds of miles of flat nothing and the screams of dying cows.
I was responding to the general proposition that institutions shouldn't run searches when they're hoping to hire existing temporary faculty; the details of this ad aren't pertinent. April 16, 2013 at 7:12 PM
Try this: "institutions shouldn't have to pretend to run legitimate searches when they're planning to hire existing temporary faculty..."
It was a bit rude to jump on a thread I started with a very specific question about a particular position, add some vague generalities, then lecture me about what is and isn't pertinent. But I'm drunk, so I forgive you, wholeheartedly. For my part, I believe all faculty deserve to be given clear and equitable guidelines for promotion, but does it matter what I think? To them I'm just cheap, disposable labor.
And that applies even in a place like Lubbock, which is a shit town if there ever was one. I would sacrifice my firstborn for the chance to be surrounded by hundreds of miles of flat nothing and the screams of dying cows.
I hereby nominate this post for the FV Hall of Fame. It captures so many issues in so few words. Brilliant.
"The top 15" is basically ALL the PhD programs. The top three to (maybe) five are the actually relevant programs, and their graduates are still being left high and dry. I have a PhD from one of those top 3-5 programs, publications, oodles of teaching experience, etc. I still get fucking shit. Never even a campus visit for the tenure track in several years on the market, nor can I actually get a decent VAP.
12:58 Do your think your experience is very common? If not even a top 3 phd can give you an advantage, it seems as if getting anything is a matter of luck nowadays...
Of course a top three PhD gives you an advantage. But frequently that advantage is not enough to get you a one-year job. Ditto for lots of teaching experience, publications, etc.
If this is your first year out, trust me, you think you realize how bad it is, but you don't yet. It's so much worse than that.
Yes, if you are considering whether to start out on the VAP circuit, let me tell you, it is just as risky as graduate school was in the first place.
I wish I could go back and tell my undergrad self, don't do grad school.
I wish I could go back and tell my grad school self, teaching experience will not make enough of a difference.
There were over 100 applicants, at this stage in the year, for Union College's recent VAP. 100 applications! If (if) I manage to apply for 20 VAP's this spring, the simplest odds tell me that my chances of finding employment in academia next year are no better than 20%. If you have any other options, get out now. (If you can afford to continue, more power to you, and I sincerely admire and envy your position.) I say this because last year everyone told me (they meant well) that I would surely be able to find a job once I had more teaching experience under my belt ... it was bad advice, but they meant well.
the previous poster is right on the money. and once you have VAP-ed for awhile, then you may well look like you are 'too experienced' for entry level tt appointments. This is Russian roulette, people, plain and simple. And you don't know which chamber holds the bullet.
It sure as hell is apocalyptic if you're on the wrong side of the numbers.
I could not agree more. Being on the wrong side of the stats is not a good place. Finding a viable professional path after a life sunk in humanities academe is no picnic. PhD becomes a liability in a big way.
agreed. in planning my own exit, numerous job counselors and head-hunter types tell me again and again that the PhD is a terrible thing for employment beyond specialized venues. they advise hiding it as long as possible in the job search.
Yes, having a Ph.D. makes a non-academic job search somewhat difficult. I am not convinced however that it is possible or even desirable not to draw attention to it. If you decide (or are compelled) to explore options beyond the academy, the time that you spent in graduate school and your degree(s) are realities that you will have to explain--hopefully, they can be presented as assets that will make you successful in whatever you do next. The critical thing, I think, is to be able to say, "I did this (classics). Now I want to do something else, specifically, what your organization does. I will be successful and I will benefit your organization."
Understand that not all employers will be receptive to this. Perhaps only few will be. If there is no logical connection between classics and the job for which you are applying, success should not be assumed. As I've noted, job searches are not easier outside of the academy.
This weekend I listened as a senior faculty member explained to a group of grad students that they should not be concerned at all about the job market because it will certainly recover by the time that they get around to graduating. After all, there will be a massive way of retirements in the coming years ...
The "old guys and gals" have every idea. They know the "wave of retirements" line is bullshit.
This is precisely what I was told when I started graduate school in 1982 -- yes, nineteen-eighty-two. I like to think it's possible that the graduate advisor who fed me that line THEN actually believed it. But those waves of retirement have happened, and happened, and happened again, in the 31 years since I started grad school -- and the re-allocations of tenure lines to other departments have happened just as regularly. No-one can possibly believe in the "wave of retirements" line now. It's beyond shameful that anyone's still saying it.
If the entire thing wasn't so tragic, I would say how cute it is that there are so many out there who actually believed they would land a faculty postion relatively fresh out of school. Folks, the situation has never been great for Classics. I would never tell my students otherwise, 2005 or 2013. If you're willing to grind it out, move around, and serve as adjunct fodder indefinitely, go for it, especially if no mouths depend mainly on you for food. Otherwise, WTF were you thinking?
Anon 2:19 AM ... It bears emphasizing that the situation really has changed dramatically since the financial crisis, and with it, reasonable expectations about one's odds of landing a TT job. When I was in grad school, virtually everyone at my institution landed a TT job within 1-2 years of finishing. Back then, If you got into a top program and could make it through, Classics looked like a pretty good bet. Not so anymore. I came out in 2008, and most of my cohort (myself included) has been bouncing around since then ... or bounced out of the field entirely. It's not just that ratio of jobs to new PhDs and of TT jobs to NTT gigs has become much more unfavorable, but also that there is a much larger backlog of qualified candidates jockeying for positions of any kind than there has been in previous decades. Maybe it's true that "it's never been great", but there's a huge difference between 'it's fairly tough' and 'it's a horrific nightmare' for people who have taken the chance and made the investment.
To 3:44 a.m. -- Just out of curiosity, when were you in grad school? I don't remember any time, in the 31 years I've been in this field, when "virtually everyone" (even from a top-ranked program) landed a t-t within two years. Maybe it happened and I just missed it, but I'm curious about what years you're talking about.
FWIW, when I started grad school in 1982 the graduate advisor said to me, first week there, "you do know you'll never get a tenure-track job, don't you?" He was wrong--I did get a t-t job after several years of adjuncting and several publications. And about half my cohort did. But it took years and the other half (of those who finished) never got the t-t. And there was a sizeable backlog through the 90s of PhDs with years of experience and lots of publications scrambling for jobs, any jobs, and those fresh out of grad school seldom got anything more than a one year and often got nothing.
The classics job market has been a nightmare for decades, though I'm sure it's true that it's even worse now.
The way high-ranked programs can achieve such numbers is to simply not count anyone who does *not* get a tenure-track job within a couple of years. We don't remember those people. Are you sure they went here?
To the person with the anecdote about 1982: it looks like that year, in fact, marked the beginning of the only time in post-WWII American when unemployment was even higher than it is now:
I know plenty of people from Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford who have been out for more than two years and still toiling in VAPs or totally washed out. Are these programs "top" enough? Then again, I run more in HIstory/Archaeology circles. Still, these toilers came out of classics departments plus Princeton's AH&A program. Unless one ignores archaeologists, I don't buy the "virtually everyone" since it's nearly impossible to get a TT job straight out of school these days as an archaeologist.
I think you missed the point of that post, which is that "virtually everyone" is to be defined as "everyone who matters" which, in turn, is defined as "everyone who got a job in the first 1-2 years".
I'm glad we've all realized how inane this argument is. On an unrelated note, the wiki has been disappointing recently. Can't we move to Google Docs or something more user-friendly?
So, which OCT are you guys taking with you these days when you go sit on the sidewalk and beg for spare change? I'm reading the Thyestes right now, and really wishing I had some tasty children to eat.
Have you all seen this yet? Seems like there is still some delusion about what awaits most graduate students on the "market." http://www.rackham.umich.edu/blog/entry/were_flattered_but_please_make_the_articles_stop/
Again, if you are of the class of people who get jobs in finance coming out of Berkeley, then getting a graduate degree in Classics is one of the most rewarding things that you can do with your time. After all, these are the "liberal arts," because academia has never been a profession in the real sense. It is a calling for those who can afford to do it.
For the sake of those who do not have the means or the opportunities should their Classics career fizzle, it is positively harmful for us not to be clear about the job prospects in our field. For those who can afford to do it, this is a wonderful life.
Plus she's a fucking graduate student. Those articles that say not to go come from people who have actually experienced the market year after year. People who are literally wandering around depressed and unemployed, a shiny PhD their only comfort.
Re: the original point. There is a very definite divide in my graduate program between the people who have had some taste of the market and the younger generation, the optimism of which seems completely undiminished by anything they hear from us.
i don't think someone who is still insulated inside of a graduate program and has not yet completed a terminal degree can really appreciate the stakes of the game. this article smacks of naivete in a serious way. why would Rackham post this? it belongs in the op-ed of the undergrad newspaper.
I think the moderator should weigh in here. Regardless of a persons position, prospects, or presumed naïveté it is tacky and discourteous to attack him/her here by name. Why begrudge someone their hope, anyway?
This article drives home exactly the point it is arguing against: younger Classics grad students still do not understand the situation they are getting themselves into. Then again, how could they? The reality is harsher than any fiction.
I imagine that at least some comments will be wiped, but if you are one of the people who were directly insulting the person in question by name or carping at their picture—carping at their picture, for fuck's sake—I don't see any harm in scraping together an apology and recovering a little dignity. It shouldn't cost you much; you can do it anonymously.
We have removed some of the more unhelpful comments, but have kept the link to the article up.
After discussion we have decided that this was not such a clear-cut case of FV policy violation. The article itself is a public document, and its author argued her case knowing that her words would likely be disseminated well beyond the boundaries of the Rackham Blog.
So, please continue to comment and respond, but please do so in a more respectful and useful manner.
When she writes "we teach at a top-tier university", the author of this infamous piece clearly sees herself, earnestly, as a colleague, as a free citizen of academic society. As a VAP, I have conversely come to see myself as a slave, a slave in the Roman sense of the word. Think about it. Back then if you had a kind master or if you were bright and literate, you might have found decent circumstances and rewarding work teaching Greek to your master's children. Your master might have treated you as an equal (e.g. Cicero and Tiro); you might eventually be freed or even buy your freedom. Servitude, under the right conditions, was not necessarily the worst possible existence. But you could also be treated poorly or unceremoniously cast off, legally and without right of redress. In academia, until you are on the tenure track (or tenured?), you are subhuman, even though it does not always seem so.
I have a full teaching load as an adjunct at a R1 uni. I work all the time. I only make about $25K before taxes. No one has a chain on my neck, but they may as well. The avg. salary for an assistant manager at the golden arches is $29,749. when i am there eating from the dollar menu, don't think the irony isn't painful.
Probably not of much interest as there is no posting to follow in the job streams, but has a decision been made for the Heidelberg phd and postdoc positions advertised a few months ago?
As a VAP, I have conversely come to see myself as a slave, a slave in the Roman sense of the word. Think about it. Back then if you had a kind master or if you were bright and literate, you might have found decent circumstances and rewarding work teaching Greek to your master's children. Your master might have treated you as an equal (e.g. Cicero and Tiro); you might eventually be freed or even buy your freedom. Servitude, under the right conditions, was not necessarily the worst possible existence. But you could also be treated poorly or unceremoniously cast off, legally and without right of redress. In academia, until you are on the tenure track (or tenured?), you are subhuman, even though it does not always seem so.
Are you just trolling us, or do you really not have the first clue about slavery?
But yes, you're right. Having a VAP is just like having no civil rights whatever and being the property of another human being, without any choice in the kind of work you do, subject to murder, assault, rape, sale, and confiscation of one's family, with the whole weight of the community and the state apparatus defending your owner's right to do whatever the fuck he wanted to you.
I am sure that there was a tiny minority of Roman slaves in a position "under the right conditions" that was, on balance, more comfortable than being a free person in a really shitty circumstance. But the thing about slavery is that you don't get to seek out the right conditions. If you don't like your backbreaking job and cell out on the estate, you don't get to apply for the job on the household staff of the nice guy who just wants to fuck you up the ass sometimes. You don't get to choose because you are a fucking slave and being a slave means you have no control over your own person and no recourse.
I don't know how a person who studies Greco-Roman antiquity gets away without understanding anything about slavery, nor perhaps more importantly how a person who is (I assume) a resident of a country where slavery hasn't even been gone for 150 years yet thinks that being a slave is basically like having a job with relatively low pay in proportion to your education and a limited term contract.
Do please get back to us, though, when a dean smashes your front teeth out in a fit of passion and sells your children to a dean in Mississippi but the cops refuse to do anything because they do not recognize you as having any rights.
I swear to God, I can't even begin to imagine the combination of ignorance and self-absorption it would take to even have this idea cross your mind.
don't you know classics is a magical and wonderful world where we all ride to work, carefree, on the backs of our rainbow complected unicorns as the birds, dwarfs, jungle animals, sea creatures, and talking rodents sing sweet, melodious songs of harmony, love, and ambivalent irrelevance? So c'mon, man, like don't kill our buzz with those real world carps about living wages, security, and the worry over your next meal. and, like, play nice 'cuz no one in real academic is ever caustic, harsh or downright mean.
Can people just calm down? The poster was so right above who talked about a pack of jackals.
I hope you weren't worried about old Heraclitus, because I love it; after all, as someone said somewhere -- help me out here, Anon. 11:08, with your superior knowledge of classical antiquity -- peiora passus sum.
I swear to God, I can't even begin to imagine the combination of ignorance and self-absorption it would take to even have this idea cross your mind.
I will freely admit to ignorance, at least, as any good Classicist would, but neither of the qualities you cite compelled me to think this way; rather it was years of service as a VAP at a pretty decent place with a livable wage and mostly supportive colleagues. You would do well to reflect upon how even such relatively advantageous conditions can turn an optimistic and ambitious young person into a terrible shell of a human being.
That said, I fear I was inarticulate in my original post. I see my life as *analogous* to that of a slave, *if* we imagine academia as ancient Rome. (American slavery was quite different, as you, an expert on slavery, surely know.) To pursue such an analogy, we must of course replace ancient physical punishment with modern psychological and emotional abuse, and ancient "civil rights", if that term is not anachronistic, with the academic system of tenure and promotion. We must replace an owner smashing in your teeth and selling your children with the dean offering you a new contract involving a 50% pay cut and the loss of health (dental!) benefits for you and your family. Yes, VAPs can and do apply for and attain other positions; so too could a Roman slave under the right conditions buy his own freedom. But he did so by amassing a peculium, through hard work and frugality, of course, but also through his master's kindness; so too does your ability as a VAP to network and build a decent CV depend to a large degree on a fair course load, understanding colleagues and support for professional development. Whether you actually receive these benefits varies widely from place to place and year to year.
My message to the innocent author of this notorious blog post and to any like-minded young person is as follows. Yes, academia does have a coherent system of rights and a tradition of offering young scholars a clear and equitable path to promotion and to a lengthy and rewarding career. But this system and this tradition apply only to those on the tenure-track, who now represent less than a quarter of all college instructors. For the rest of us, there is no expectation of long term employment, even if we perform well; nor must our superiors feel obliged to help us advance our careers (although many do it anyways) or offer us any explanation when our livelihood is suddenly taken away. If you accept a contingent position, you are agreeing to forgo rights that your "colleagues" will enjoy. Thus the analogy to ancient slavery.
The Ph.D. is probably too off-putting for admin. assistant jobs. It's really not the best training for such jobs, in my opinion. But, there's no harm in applying. I would think that success is more likely in applications to smaller organizations.
I see my life as *analogous* to that of a slave, *if* we imagine academia as ancient Rome. ... To pursue such an analogy, we must of course replace ancient physical punishment with modern psychological and emotional abuse, and ancient "civil rights", if that term is not anachronistic, with the academic system of tenure and promotion.
OK, well, relatedly, it has just occurred to me that the time I got held up for my wallet is analogous to the Bataan Death March. There were guns at both, and I really didn't want to lose my wallet, and the POWs really didn't want to go on the march. Also, winning the lottery is identical to getting struck by lightning, as both experiences are unlikely, almost certainly unanticipated, and change a person's future a great deal.
My point isn't that you can't grope to find an analogy between one thing and another—apples and oranges are both fruit!—it's that certain analogies are so strained that they are absurd and useless. An analogy between being a slave and having a job that you hate as a free person in a liberal democracy is that kind of analogy, and it's only possible to think that analogy makes any kind of sense if you don't understand what slavery is.
Finally, 1). no, the concept of rights inhering in citizen status is not anachronistic in any way 2). peculium had no legal force and was the master's property, to be reclaimed by him whenever he wanted without giving you your freedom, if he so preferred 3). why do you think you'd get to choose to be one of the tiny fraction of slaves for whom peculium to purchase freedom would even be a relevant concept? 4). American slavery's being different in that it was wrapped up with white supremacist ideology doesn't mean that servitude in the ancient world was in any sense a desirable condition, it just means it wasn't also about racism against Africans and 5). I am not remotely an expert on slavery or even a historian, which makes this especially awkward.
I am not remotely an expert on slavery or even a historian, which makes this especially awkward.
Are you embarrassed for me? For my part, I would be glad to be cured of my ignorance of ancient slavery, especially by you, Anon. 2:17 am (!), and if I've learned anything about the topic from our discussion, be assured that I will count it as a blessing. I'm a bit puzzled that you find this manner of speaking so unnatural and offensive when it has a good classical pedigree (Tacitus, Ag. 2, servitus OLD 2), but maybe you think that ancient and modern society are in no way analogous, in which case, no need to read any further. I fear, as the previous poster mentioned, that you believe I am comparing the entirety of my life to that of the ancient slave, when I am really drawing a fairly narrow analogy between conditions of employment, a subtle but important difference. Maybe this will be clearer if I address your points 2 & 3 directly. The ability to amass a peculium was indeed, as I noted, dependent on a master's kindness; so too you will not succeed in moving from a VAP to T-T without institutional support, which institutions are not obligated to provide contingent faculty! Nor is there any guarantee that the work you are doing will advance your career, because there are no guidelines for promotion; many T-T positions seem simply to want someone young and without the taint of temporary employment. But wait, you say, only a tiny minority of slaves could ever dream of buying their freedom; yet how many students entering graduate school today will wind up on the tenure track? Is it more than 7%, about the percentage of college instructors who are non-tenured T-T faculty? Even those of us in comfortable VAPs are a tiny minority of contingent academic labor. CUNY alone employs 10,500 adjuncts, under notorious conditions.
So I not at all concerned about my "citizen rights", nor am I really interested in ancient slavery, for all I have learned about it from you. I am simply disgusted by a corrupt system that imparts rights, often at random, to some but not others and yet still manages to suborn talented young people to support and defend it.
2:17 AM seems like a perfectly civilized time to be commenting. My comment was posted at 11:17 PM where I am, however. I will leave it to you to fathom this mystery.
I'm a bit puzzled that you find this manner of speaking so unnatural and offensive when it has a good classical pedigree (Tacitus, Ag. 2, servitus OLD 2)
This was a ludicrous analogy at the time. There was not a man of the senatorial elite under Domitian who would have entertained for a second the idea of trading his existence for a slave’s until the moment he got word that palace agents were coming to demand his suicide, and even then if the choice had been offered of slavery for life few would have taken it. It’s a metaphor born of privilege, used by people who didn’t have to worry about literally being slaves, and the second they were confronted with the choice they would have recognized and acknowledged the difference between the metaphor and reality. And there are all kinds of manners of speaking common in antiquity that people don’t use now, because they’re offensive (if you have not succeeded in identifying any of these yet, consult your female colleagues for help).
But listen, if you want to have a comment thread where having a temporary academic position bears interesting points of analogy to slavery, far be it from me to object. Relatedly, just as a suggestion of some low-hanging fruit, let me point out that nobody has drawn any points of edifying resemblance between having a VAP and living under Jim Crow, and that seems like an underexploited analogy: surely there’s some illuminating point to be made there from the contrast between actual unequal treatment and formal rhetoric of equality. Sure, some unenlightened people may say that it’s outrageous to draw that kind of analogy, but you just have to keep pushing on in the conviction that you’re not drawing any kind of moral equivalence between the two situations; you’re just pointing out ways in which they resemble each other!
I find it hilarious that you apparently have the capacity to become offended on behalf of people who have been dead for at least 1,500 years.
Yeah, it sucked to be an ancient slave. But unlike Jim Crow, that shit is *long* gone. Cf. the term vandalism, the political incorrectness of which no one gives a shit about.
I am very glad to hear that you are going to bed a reasonable hour, my nameless friend. I can tell you with some certainty that sleepless nights lead to ludicrous analogies in the Tacitean style, if I may flatter my observation with such a precedent.
I am starting to understand where you are coming from, for which I am very grateful. Choice seems to play a key role in your argument; if people choose a life in academia (and they clearly do so, in droves) and if most of them (75% or so) end up in non-tenure-track positions, then clearly academic life must be choice-worthy and therefore in no way analogous to something like ancient slavery, which few noble Romans would have preferred to death. This, to me, is one of the great mysteries of our little world. If we believe this thread, undergraduates are constantly discouraged from undertaking graduate study. They are told, or should be, that their job prospects will be dim, that they will be lucky to get one offer, that professors make very little money. If they read this blog, they would know the hours are long, the work often little more than drudgery and getting stuck in an endless series of temporary positions is a real possibility. They should really know, from Fallen Classicist et al., that it is very difficult to leave academia once you have finished your PhD and taken an academic job. If they even glanced at the Chronicle and other such publications, they would know that things are getting worse for college faculty -- often much worse. Yet young people willfully ignore all this information and leave stable and lucrative positions outside of academia, in the vague hope of something more fulfilling. Not only that, they complain bitterly and publicly that all this doom and gloom is depressing them! Is it the allure of the title "Professor" ? Is it the power of wishful thinking? I've tried and failed (so far) to find employment outside of academia, so I persist in my academic job search. But I can't understand why anyone would choose this lifestyle as blithely and recklessly as our intrepid blogger apparently has. There is a huge, unbridgeable gap between the reality I experience daily and the perception of academic life that prevails among the young and the innocent.
In a similar vein, anyone have any intelligence on the VAP position at NYU? Deadline was nearly 2 months ago, I'm guessing that means they probably have a decision by now.
Has the damage vis a vis a non-academic career already been done once you get the PhD? Will it hurt me further to keep VAPing a few more years, in terms of possible future non-academic employment?
I think that it is not particularly likely that a number of years post Ph.D. of work as a VAP or adjunct will increase opportunities for non-academic employment. For most jobs, work as a VAP or adjunct will not provide skills or experience that is directly sought by non-academic employers.
That said, I am not convinced that working as a VAP or adjunct will be particularly harmful for a non-academic search. I have some of this experience. Many of the same questions will be asked in interviews (e.g., why you want to change careers).
But, do realize that there there is no general pattern for how classics Ph.Ds. find non-academic employment, particularly if additional education is not involved. When a position both well suited for a classicist and at an organization open to employing a (fallen) classicist might come along is not all that predictable, but it does happen with some frequency. When these opportunities present themselves, it may well be worth applying, whether you are just finishing (or have just finished) a Ph.D. or are working as a VAP. Just don't assume that you can base your entire job search on these positions. Their availability just isn't that predictable. Apply for classics jobs, also. And, think about whether other training or education might be worthwhile.
If you're well-rounded as a person (definitely not a given with Classicists these days), VAPing can lead to administrative jobs, especially at universities. Besides organizing a symposium, were you involved with administrative tasks, both formal and informal, at your institutions of higher learning? Most grad programs have several of these types that seem to hold the student community together.
As long as you didn't flame out spectacularly or burn bridges, many organizations will look at your understanding of the inner workings of universities (if it exists) as a big plus. Universities need academic advisors, assistant/associate deans, etc. and in my experience, many in these posts have little idea of what they're doing outside of their own undergraduate experience or what they might have learned after years on the job.
This got me thinking ... when I get my tenth interview of the year sometime in the next couple weeks -- it's bound to happen -- should I feel like a total piece of sh*t? What a joke this whole process has been.
Yep. I just got my upteenth interview. At this point I just get them and am like, "Fuck you. You fuckers aren't going to hire me, you just want to see me dance. Fuck off. I've made my peace with failure and don't need you dicks getting my hopes up a-fucking-GAIN."
I am the 'it is may--game is over' person. I truly did not mean to make the VAPs feel bad. I meant to say that the game is over for the tenure-track positions. Good luck to those who are still trying to get a position for next yr.
Sometimes I wonder if we could, collectively, do something about this horrible process. Say we all refuse to do the sessional teaching and the VAPS and all that comes with that.
At this point I just get them and am like, "Fuck you. You fuckers aren't going to hire me, you just want to see me dance. Fuck off. I've made my peace with failure and don't need you dicks getting my hopes up a-fucking-GAIN."
Wow. With that attitude, it's hard to imagine why you're not an SC's dream interviewee.
I disagree; I think you're poised for success. Believe me, I've been the model of decorum and congeniality. Hasn't worked. Comes across as effete. Time to try insouciance and bombast. Time to say "F*** you, just give me the job! Who you gonna hire, this loser?" Like this.
I'm joking, but only just. I wish you the best, because I've been there.
Yes. Considering they really aren't going to hire me no matter what, my attitude is hardly relevant. So I might as well vent some of that frustration with a bunch of fucks on the internet as I continue to apply for minimum-wage jobs.
Big picture, people, big picture. Those of us forced out now because we aren't hired are the lucky ones. Would you rather get pushed out years down the road, with yet more totally useless experience under your belt?
Looking back, what do you think the job-of-the year was? Based on what factors? What were the stinkers? Or did a promising job turn out to be a stinker post-interview?
You truly still have much to learn if you don't understand the nature of Harvard searches. Go ask your advisors and dry out the backside of your ears a bit.
As a historian, I'm glad about the continuing evolution of classics. It's ridiculous that some twenty-something probie lands a job out of grad school because they focused on one chapter of Vergil and had an advisor with connections. I suspect this group is the one crying the most on here. News flash, this "terrible market" is pretty much how it's always been for historians and archaeologists. Learn to live with the new reality that increasingly few universities want hyper specialized philologists who don't even want to teach "large" language classes and think it's their ultimate right to teach upper level classes with several students. Welcome to the 21st century - boo hoo.
Fuck you. I don't have to deal with your shit. I can literally go cut my throat out right fucking now and never have to listen to you ever again. You are a joke, you powerless piece of shit. You are all fucking jokes. I don't have to stay here with you fucks. The dead don't fucking need jobs. Get back to grading whatever your undergrads shat out last night and leave me alone.
p.s. I just landed a job teaching high school and am sooooooo looking forward to not having to deal with academics who understand neither the 21st century nor the value of academia. Best of luck to you all!
As if 99.999999999999999999% of the world cares. But thank God we have hundreds of Virgilists out there to keep the light of enlightenment lit for us so civilization doesn't collapse.
Wait, the barbaric world is beginning to see that we need hundreds of Virgilists? Bastards. Heathens.
Good, that's where the vast majority of you should be. It's an absolute joke that so many even up to now have landed TT jobs at research institutions. The vast majority of research has been weak sauce with little innovation for decades. It's about time everyone woke up, including our own discipline. Let's hope it hasn't been too late once the dust settles.
We really need to get prospective and current graduate students to read this blog and ask themselves: do you really want to turn yourself into one of these people?
The only perspective they need is that they're not all that special and they'll need to be more special than ever before, especially in the eyes of non-acolytes, to land a job in ten years.
That's not true in all cases. Some of them only worked on a single canto of Herodotus or a single ode of Livy.
Personally, I'm not impressed by this kind of small ball. I don't take somebody seriously unless they've worked on all of Pindar's novels or all of the short stories of Aristotle.
The job of the year was the Michigan papyrology job. First, of course, it was t-t at a top program. But more importantly, whereas Greek and Roman languages, literature, history, and art/archaeology can be taught at countless places, this was one of the best jobs for a papyrologist anywhere in the country because there are only 2-3 other comparable collections, and it might be years before a similar position opens up again.
Okay, you may all get back to your potty-mouthed tirades now.
I wouldn't call 402 candidates chasing 104 t-t jobs (the numbers from 2004-2005) "fucking paradise" or "easy as fuck to get a job." MUCH better than 2011-2012, no question. No argument there. But "easy as fuck"? There were still 3 candidates who did not get one of those t-t jobs for every 1 who did.
Ok, but a lot of Classicists have weird issues with social skills and endurance which make "fuck" harder than usual. I think Ovid wrote about it somewhere.
If you truly believe that a recently tenured faculty member conversing with recent PhDs is akin to the latter group hanging out with undergrads, you truly are wet behind the ears. For one, tenured faculty can bang recent grads with impunity while undergrads for the latter is dangerously close to jail bait.
Well, if you're like a certain classicist from Stanford, you get invited to Langley by the CIA. If you're the billionth person to come out with a "new" translation of Vergil, you deserve to be ignored by almost all of humanity. Hopefully, search committees will start ignoring these people as well so we'll stop encouraging such inbred, irrelevant research.
Okay, a different ancient historian chiming in here. "The Aeneid is a profound reflection on the dangers to which a militaristic society is prone"? Can I please have an explanation of what makes it so? I have read it and taught it more than a few times, but don't see that. I suspect that you are reading into it something that is not there and then misusing the phrase "reflection on" (which implies that Vergil intended his work to be read that way), but perhaps I am just not as well-versed in Vergil as I should be.
Anyway, at risk of elevating this conversation, I thought I would ask for a quick lecture on Vergil.
You do not have to be well-versed in Vergil. You just have to know how to read.
ille, oculis postquam saeui monimenta doloris exuuiasque hausit, furiis accensus et ira terribilis: 'tune hinc spoliis indute meorum eripiare mihi? Pallas te hoc uulnere, Pallas immolat et poenam scelerato ex sanguine sumit.' hoc dicens ferrum aduerso sub pectore condit feruidus; ast illi soluuntur frigore membra uitaque cum gemitu fugit indignata sub umbras.
The life of Turnus is brought before the reader in the closing line. We hear his groan, and we are confronted with his indignation, which continues as he becomes nothing more than a shade. The poem ends at this point, and you are left to piece together what remains.
If you choose to think that the end is meaningless and that the heroism of Aeneas is all that matters, so much the worse for you and your students. If you make sense of why the poem ends with the death of Turnus, then you will see that the end of the poem (ferrum condit) completes Aeneas's mission (dum conderet urbem) and reveals all the anxiety that an educated and successful Italian who rose to prominence under Augustus could feel.
I don't understand how history and archaeology could possibly matter if literature doesn't matter.
What, we don't care about ancient people's *thoughts* but we do care about who won what battle and what people liked to eat, and what the tax rates were in this period and how many columns this temple had?
It all has value, taken together. Certainly philology would be much the poorer without historians and archaeologists, but the converse is most certainly true as well. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just ridiculous.
True, but do we need ten philologists for every ancient historian and archaeologist, especially in light of where new discoveries and interdisciplinary collaborations are taking place? Do we still believe that 90% of the curriculum should be literature based to match this ideology? Is it crazy to propose that I teach more than baby Latin and intro to Roman History? I don't think even administrators believe this is in the best interest of classics, yet we keep on pumping them out and requesting lines with this ratio in mind.
If you believe that the CIA would ever be interested in one word of the Aeneid, you have your head further up your ass than even the most classical of classicists.
Anonymous 3:16, I'm not convinced that your reading of the ending is necessarily the best, and a quick Google search certainly reveals it is not the only one out there. Also, you are going from a statement about "dangers" faced by a "militaristic society" to "anxiety" faced by Roman elites under (the murderous?) Augustus -- hardly the same thing. I'm curious what others think. If I'm convinced that the "Aeneid" is a "reflection" on "militaristic society" I will most certainly teach it that way in the future; otherwise, I will stick with my own perfectly reasonable approach (which does not mindlessly focus on the heroism of Aeneas, I should note).
Well, the word on the street is that the AIA has started its own career services department. Good riddance, grubby archaeologists. Don't let the door hit you as you crawl back into the trenches where you came from.
I worry that this puerile and inane bickering ignores a much greater threat to the profession of college professor in general. Consider for example this quotation from the recent New Yorker article on MOOCs:
"If overloaded institutions diverted their students to online education, it would reduce faculty, and associated expenses."
and also further on:
“Imagine you’re at South Dakota State,” he said, “and they’re cash-strapped, and they say, ‘Oh! There are these HarvardX courses. We’ll hire an adjunct for three thousand dollars a semester, and we’ll have the students watch this TV show.’ Their faculty is going to dwindle very quickly. Eventually, that dwindling is going to make it to larger and less poverty-stricken universities and colleges. The fewer positions are out there, the fewer Ph.D.s get hired. The fewer Ph.D.s that get hired—well, you can see where it goes. It will probably hurt less prestigious graduate schools first, but eventually it will make it to the top graduate schools. . . . If you have a smaller graduate program, you can be assured the deans will say, ‘First of all, half of our undergraduates are taking moocs. Second, you don’t have as many graduate students. You don’t need as many professors in your department of English, or your department of history, or your department of anthropology, or whatever.’ And every time the faculty shrinks, of course, there are fewer fields and subfields taught. And, when fewer fields and subfields are taught, bodies of knowledge are neglected and die. You can see how everything devolves from there.”
I'm not saying this is definitely going to happen -- you might say it's a bit alarmist. But it nonetheless underlines for me that the goal of many, many administrators is to reduce what they spend on faculty in any way possible -- and that leaves most of us in this venerable field very vulnerable, no matter what we study.
Well, the word on the street is that the AIA has started its own career services department. Good riddance, grubby archaeologists. Don't let the door hit you as you crawl back into the trenches where you came from.
boy, someone here is an asshole. oh right. classicists
Anonymous 12:02 a.m., the archaeologists left because of the incompetent way the APA's been running things. Blame the APA for turning a blind eye to the problem for so long, and not knowing how to say "You're fired" to someone richly deserving of it, for creating a situation that made this split possible.
"Who the fuck cares what the CIA is interested in? Torturing random people mostly, I gather."
This sounds like a heroically contrarian thing to say, but the CIA's daily budget is probably our entire discipline's for the year. More importantly, what the CIA says and desires influences the DoD, NSA, etc. and vice versa. Eventually, this bleeds down to the NSF, NIH, NEH, etc.
As a discipline, we've been largely immune to public sentiment due to wealthy donors. They are disappearing and where they still exist, their influence has greatly diminished (or they just don't really care all that much anymore about us).
So yes, we can say fuck the CIA, but this hopefully doesn't reflect what we generally think and do with authorities. Unless a classicist actually goes to Langley and explains why our discipline matters, it's obtuse to think "if they were smart, they would have mined the Aeneid" really cuts it.
Fuck the tea party classicists out there. Let the pruning begin. What are you going to do? Get rid of the one archaeologist and/or historian in your department (if you have any) to save one of your five Latinists? If so, let the discipline die. It richly deserves to suffer a slow and painful death if we're still partying like it's 1899.
the reason classics is outmoded and irrelevant as a discipline is not because of its subject matter but, rather, because of the prevailing attitude of the majority of its sorry practitioners. Many of those problems are reflected in the comments and spats that have appeared on this wretched blog over the past years.
"the reason classics is outmoded and irrelevant as a discipline"...
This is frankly childish.
Let's bear in mind that *all of academia* is going through this crisis together. Universities don't want to hire full-time, tenure-track faculty. Full stop. Archaeologists may blame philologists for the state of the job market, but all of the evidence points to a more general malaise.
As Heraclitus alluded to above, there are no winners on the labor side of the equation in the academy of tomorrow. That's the point of MOOCs and a lot of other "innovative" approaches to higher ed. They're about saving money, and the savings they generate for institutions will come largely at the expense of workers.
The sooner we realize this and work together to fight back and, if possible, *grow* the discipline in ways that serve the interests of faculty and students, the better off we'll be.
PS - One thing that really does weaken the integrity of any field is to countenance the presence in it of the kind of prideful ignorance that can sneer at dissertations focusing only on "one chapter of Virgil". If you're unable to understand why that attitude is offensive and brutish, then in my view you don't deserve to be teaching students about the ancient world.
The sooner we realize this and work together to fight back and, if possible, *grow* the discipline in ways that serve the interests of faculty and students, the better off we'll be.
right. the ur-discipline of elite snobbery that still sneers at those who pronunciation of ancient words is slightly off will suddenly learn to cooperate internally? what about the Latin-focused faculty in my R-1 department who HATE archaeology faculty and grad students SO MUCH that they go out of their way (again and again) to disadvantage their enemies who focus on material culture and history as opposed to Lacanian analysis. If the OP believes that it is in cooperation that the salvation of classics lies, then you may as well get the bodybag ready.
And what, exactly, are the virtues of incredibly narrowly construed literary theses? Really? Would you advise historians to write a thesis focused only on 5 years of history? Regardless, the contextualization of such narrow approaches is truly problematic.
"Let's bear in mind that *all of academia* is going through this crisis together. Universities don't want to hire full-time, tenure-track faculty. Full stop. Archaeologists may blame philologists for the state of the job market, but all of the evidence points to a more general malaise."
Yeah, we get it. Academia is evolving and we all rise and sink with the tide. The only problem is that regardless of what the tide is doing, there is something fundamentally wrong with the classics ship. I used to hope that it was slowly changing, but it's obvious to me now that the discipline is largely producing the same tea party clones who know little outside of an increasingly narrow worldview. Even if the majority recognized that something was fundamentally wrong AND had the desire to do something about it, they wouldn't know the first place to start.
I would say that the gratuitous use of the phrase "tea party clones" itself shows striking narrowmindedness, and a good bit of elitism might possibly be inferred as well. Not to mention ignorance of the language, as "Tea Party" should be capitalized.
Yep, we're going down and I'm not just saying this because I'm on my second VAP. I suppose it might be perceived as disingenuous since I'm apparently "the man" as a Hellenist, but I honestly think you historians and archaeologists will make out okay. Your research and teaching have traction with the general public and you admittedly have a surplus of new and interesting questions to ask. I exist because classics departments exist and I don't doubt within a century that some greatly watered down version of me will be teaching in some monstrous languages and literatures department.
Not to change the topic, but what is going on with the Wiki? It seems to have devolved to reporting rejection letters. Are people just sick of updating it? Or has there been no real process for this latest group of jobs (Rutgers, NYU, Temple, Tulane?, Wheaton?, Iowa? etc.)?
Oh, grow up, and gain some perspective while you're at it. Times are tough, lots of people can't find jobs they trained for. Have you been paying attention to what's happening with law school grads? Many of them are having trouble finding jobs, even those from the best law schools, because firms aren't hiring. Sure, they're in better positions than we are, but it's still essentially the same thing: they got a graduate education in a difficult area, and cannot find the sort of job they had expected.
We're not special, and it's really getting old that some of us can't stop bellyaching.
A recent poster asked what those without jobs would be doing "for the year." I took this to mean that the person would somehow make ends meet "for the year" before searching for another job this fall, praying for that job during the spring, and likely being disappointed---and again wondering what they would do for the year after.
My advice: quit while you're ahead. Go back to school. Get some sciences. Check out what careers are "hot" and likely to continue to need workers.
Hey man, I was there, wondering what I'd do "for the year." Looking back, I was like a drug addict waiting for the next fix, hoping and praying for that next high, maybe the eternal high.
Believe it or not, I'm happier now that I've quit than I ever was teaching in VAPs or post-docs and itching for the next score---the one that never came.
Obviously leaving Classics is the smart bet for virtually everyone, even those who have employment for next year and a fair number of those on the tenure track. But the idea of going back to school for any reason, after so much of my life pointlessly wasted on schooling, makes me want to vomit. I am hoping I can fall into *something* without having to go be Pierce Hawthorne.
A word of encouragement to those considering high school teaching. There's not much (any) prestige, and you can't teach the kind of awesome boutique courses you pitched in your cover letters, but it sure as hell beats some of the alternatives (adjuncting? re-training?). I started high school teaching with the idea that it was temporary, but it's turned out to be a pretty sweet gig. The kids are (mostly) smart and respectful, the campus is beautiful, the money is decent, my weekends are (usually) my own. I still get to teach and learn about the ancient world. Losing the intellectual rigor and social esteem of academia is more than made up for by the ability to finally relax and enjoy life. And the more high school students we get interested in classics, the more demand for college courses, the better for our colleagues in higher ed and our discipline as a whole. Win, win, win. It's not the right fit for everyone, but if it interests you, go for it!
I can't imagine hanging out in the shadow of the university in high school teaching, publishing, or library science like some Dickensian urchin peering through a window on a feast. Better, I think, to break free and move on with your life.
You should not give the impression that high school teaching is easier than college teaching. It can in fact be much, much more challenging. To do it well, you need a strong personality and strong moral compass. Nor are these jobs necessarily easy to get; believe me, I've tried!
On the other hand, it's ludicrous to imagine that to teach high school is to live in the "shadow" of the university. This false sense of superiority -- which can fester into spite and bitterness -- is why the best high schools are often reluctant to hire former academics. These are different jobs with different challenges and different rewards.
I can't imagine hanging out in the shadow of the university in high school teaching, publishing, or library science like some Dickensian urchin peering through a window on a feast. Better, I think, to break free and move on with your life.
Whether you're a graduate, adjuncting, on the tenure-track, or tenured, please do us all, and especially your students, a big favor and take your own advice. To continue the thought of the last poster, I doubt that many schools could imagine you in their classrooms either, and I bet that your attitude would or does make you a pretty unpleasant teacher at the university level too. Speaking of Dickensian characters, I'm thinking more Wackford Squeers than Oliver Twist.
Anon 11:38, you are quite right. The job itself isn't easy, and if I gave that impression, let me correct it. As you observed, it takes a ton of energy, personality, and emotional commitment. But for me, at least, the lifestyle as a whole is less anxiety producing.
Anon 10:57, if that's how you feel, then of course it wouldn't be the right thing for you. But my whole point was that this little urchin has skipped off down the road and is much happier.
High school teaching jobs seem like they're harder to get than VAPs, if not TT jobs. I've been applying to both and never hear anything at all from the high schools, though I have had a shit ton of VAP interviews.
12:25, I am curious about your experience with high schools. Have you used Carney, Sandoe? And do you market yourself as someone who would love to work with younger students and to explain Latin grammar day in and day out? In my experience, that is what high schools want to hear, and they are fairly receptive when they do. Of course, it depends on what kind of high schools you are applying to, where in the country you are from, where your degrees are from, etc. I just had one interview with a high school, where I was asked about my undergrad institution (scarily conservative for this interviewer), something along the lines of, do you know that our boarding school intentionally cultivates a very liberal culture. I was touched by the interviewers honesty and simplicity, but this experience also made it clear to me that issues of fit are even more important when you're talking about an elite high school. For public schools, I think it's much more important that you be present and persistent (there are ways around the certification issue for those willing to deal with them). If you're willing to go that route, I definitely think that you can find a high school job, if you are willing to apply broadly enough as sell yourself as someone who will be happy teaching Ecce Romani, which can of course be rewarding and also allow you more time to do the things that matter to you (which could obviously include research on the weekends).
I should try Carney, Sandoe then? Are there really that many boarding schools? The very idea of a boarding school kind of freaks me out, but then again I've never had any experience of one.
I have just been applying to stuff I see listed on the website of the American Classical League. But I don't bother with a great deal of it, since I am not comfortable working at a religious institution.
Yep, you boomers are holding on to non-academic jobs for dear life as well because you obviously didn't suck out enough marrow from society during the last thirty years. WW II vets - greatest generation. Boomers - never has a generation in human history acquired as much wealth and squandered it just as quickly. Nice legacy. Thanks for the nuclear crater you've left us.
You really haven't poked your head outside lately, have you? There are no jobs, especially not for a humanities PhD.
Yes, heaven forfend that someone with a humanities PhD might have to lower hirself to apply to an hourly job at minimum wage with no benefits. Kind of like the one I had at this time last year.
Well, no one should have to lack benefits, and no one should have to work at the current minimum wage. Our society is fucked up beyond belief in that regard.
And there aren't many opportunities out there at minimum wage, either.
"Yes, heaven forfend that someone with a humanities PhD might have to lower hirself to apply to an hourly job at minimum wage with no benefits. Kind of like the one I had at this time last year."
Sure, I'm wiling to do this to survive, especially for the short-term if it doesn't compromise my chances for a better long-term future. Am I happy to eat dog food and live like an illegal just because someone else thinks this normal in the world's richest country? Nope.
APA Blog : Message about 2013-2014 Placement Service << American Philological Association News
I am sorry to announce that the AIA has terminated its participation in the Joint AIA–APA Placement Service. This unfortunate decision dissolves a partnership that has lasted for more than three decades. We at APA discouraged this step because we believe it will put an additional burden on many candidates and institutions both at the joint annual meeting and throughout the hiring process. In moving ahead, we are determined to continue to offer an excellent Placement Service to our registrants, even as we work on upgrading what has been offered in the past.
In 2011 the APA independently commissioned the creation of an online system to handle Placement Service registration, the immediate posting of new position listings on a private web site, and the scheduling of interviews at the annual meeting. During the current academic year, Information Architect Sam Huskey and his colleague Alex Ward made several improvements to this System, including programming that issued an e-mail notification to registered candidates on the day following the posting of a new position. Sam and Alex are now at work on further improvements for 2013-14, particularly some steps to make the registration process easier for both candidates and institutions.
AIA Officers stated that one of the goals for their separate system is to make candidates aware of jobs, particularly those outside of academia, whose hiring cycle is not connected to interviews at the annual meeting. We do not feel that it was necessary to create a separate system to achieve this goal, which, in any case, we share: Our current ability to issue notices about new position listings overnight makes the System a good vehicle throughout the calendar year for the transmission of information about new jobs.
While the Placement Committee will no longer be a joint committee with AIA, APA will ensure that the Committee’s membership includes archaeologists and will make every effort to attract job listings to the Service that reflect the full range of opportunities for students of classical studies today, from employers seeking scholars of language, literature, and material culture (and combinations of those areas) for academic positions as well as suitable candidates for nonacademic employment. As many of you know, nonacademic employment was the subject of the Joint Placement Committee’s panel at the recent Seattle meeting, and we will soon be posting audio files of the presentations at that session on the APA web site.
Last month the Committee issued its usual questionnaire to candidates registered for the Service in 2012-2013. In addition, it is about to send a new survey instrument to institutions that purchased comprehensive service (i.e., conducted interviews at the annual meeting as well as posting a job) in both the current and previous academic year. Our goal in both cases is obtain further information as to how we might improve the Placement Service. I welcome comments on the Service from members at any time, particularly from those who may not receive either of the surveys described above. Do let us hear your views.
John F. Miller Vice President for Professional Matters jfm4j@virginia.edu
Here's an idea for the APA: hire Carney Sandoe to run the Placement Service. Or failing that, adopt a Carney-Sandoe-esque model. I don't discount the good-faith efforts to improve the Placement Service in recent years, but I've found Carney Sandoe more professional, more efficient and more humane. Why, you ask?
1) The service is free for job seekers; institutions (I think) either pay a percentage of the starting salary after making a successful hire or pay an annual subscription fee.
2) Each applicant is assigned a Placement Counselor and a Placement Associate, who keep up to date on your search, answer questions about specific schools and in some cases seem to act as agents.
3) The essential materials of a dossier (cv, transcripts, letters of reference) are uploaded to the CS&A website; whenever a job is listed, your "Placement Team" sends your dossier for you.
4) Openings are listed chronologically, with the latest ones first (amazing!), in a standardized format and updated with important information like whether the position has been filled. After a time, out-of-date listings are removed.
5) But the actual list of openings is often irrelevant, because schools who subscribe to the service can browse through dossiers (apparently) whenever they like. It is not unheard of to get a call out of the blue from a school looking to fill a position that is not advertised anywhere.
The vagaries and terrible economic reality of job searches in higher education account for some of the differences between these two services, of course. But if the APA actually cares about the experience of the applicants who being "placed", it will take a hard look at the CS&A model, which is clearly superior, in my mind.
Higher Ed already has something similar to the Carney Sandoe model for independent schools. In fact, it is superior to CS, is already up and running, fairly inexpensive, and much more efficient:
https://academicjobsonline.org/ajo
Almost all Math and Physics hiring is done this way, and Classics would be wise to follow. One problem, I think, is that the APA needs the revenue from the Placement Service.
Does anybody know what the new AIA service will look like? Will we non-archaeologists be able to use it?
Am I the only one who suspects that this move from the AIA is an intentional one, to distance itself from an organization that it sees as out of touch, out of date, and generally inefficient? Archaeology as a field is much bigger than Classics, and so stepping away from the APA makes a kind of sense as the field of archaeology seeks to survive and even thrive even as many other academic disciplines are fading off into the past. I don't think they'd prevent APA types from joining (isn't the new service supposed to be free?), but there probably won't be many jobs that aren't primarily material culture in their focus. I suspect that the APA will still have something of a monopoly on "generalist" positions, and some of the archy people seem intent on stealing those from the "more appropriate" candidates on the APA side of the aisle. So I'd expect the two new services to operate in parallel, with lots of candidates signed up for both. But the Placement Service monopoly is now over, and some people will probably not think that's such a horrible change.
Yes, AcademicJobsOnline is very neat, very efficient; I think I used it a couple times last year. I imagine they are competing with Interfolio's By Committee service, although these two are not exactly equivalent. Both are leaps and bounds ahead of what the APA is doing, and that's to be expected, for the same reason that the rest of this process is sometimes (often?) a total shit show: we are classicists, not HR or web development professionals.
I disagree slightly about the comparison to CS&A, however, because, in addition advertising openings and collecting materials, CS&A provides advocacy and counseling. They will seek out opportunities on your behalf and send your materials for you. They have a stake in you getting a job; that's how they get paid. I admit that a set of incentives and economies rather unique to independent schools makes such a model possible. But it raises for me a philosophical question about the word "Placement". Has this always been a euphemism for e.g. "Meat Market" ? I.e. has it always a service primarily for committees, whether to connect them with appropriate candidates or to give a desirable veneer of fairness and openness to a decision more or less made in advance? Or is there some original sense in which the service has a responsibility to serve applicants, to strive to find the right position for each qualified applicant? I'm asking honestly.
I can only imagine that the whole "job market" experience has gotten better and better over the years. Yes, it is a shit-show still, but I'm thinking that 20, 30, 40 years ago it was far, far worse. Especially for women.
So, no, I can't imagine that by "Placement Service" there was ever the notion that they had some sort of duty to the applicants. It's a coordination center, that is it. But what do I know, I'm unemployed.
1,279 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1001 – 1200 of 1279 Newer› Newest»I agree with April 13, 2013 at 1:14 AM. I've got a student right now (in my NTT position) who is interested in grad school. It would be unethical to say: "It's easy to get a job. Go for it!" But it would be equally inappropriate to say: "Don't go. You will never get a job." While I'm by no means convinced that this student has what it takes to get into, let alone through, grad school, she should be allowed to find her own way. If an undergrad asks about the job market, I think it's appropriate to be honest. But only to discourage people out of hand is overstepping one's role.
2:50 said:
"If an undergrad asks about the job market, I think it's appropriate to be honest. But only to discourage people out of hand is overstepping one's role."
I vehemently disagree. In all my years of teaching (over 25 now), only once or twice has an undergrad major actually asked me about the job market in classics. They see employed professors all the time and they never meet the people who don't get hired. They are invariably shocked and horrified when they hear that each college-level job opening in Classics has well over 100 and often as many as 200 applicants. It is absolutely NOT overstepping our role to tell them this up front. Not to volunteer this information would be a shocking failure in our duty to our majors -- even if they don't ask (perhaps especially if they don't ask).
Of course, some of them will want to go to graduate school despite the horrific job market. And once they've made that decision, of course we should (and I do) help them in any way we can, with recommendation letters, advice about programs, etc. But we owe it to them to give them a clear view of just what the market is like now so that they can make their decision about grad school with some idea of what they'll find when they have the doctorate in hand.
And (on a slightly different topic) we should do everything in our power to discourage them from even considering taking out loans for grad school. My conversations with them about this point boil down to: "If you get funding, and you are realistic about employment prospects on the other end, then go with my blessing. But DO NOT borrow for grad school. Just don't do it."
Jesus Christ, people borrow for Classics grad school?
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
"Opening" at Texas Tech
As practically any T-T job listed at this late date, this is a pro forma listing, right?
Someone just confirm this for me so I don't waste quality drinking time on this application.
Look, there's no rule saying you can't multi-task. Drink with one hand, type with the other.
Or, if you have teh skillz, hold the bottle in your mouth and drink hands free by tilting your head back. This is not for the faint of throat.
Excellent advice. Unfortunately I don't have the right skillez or I won't still be applying for jobs. But I've seen a few faux-listings in my time, and this looks like one to me. I hope I'm wrong, of course.
Back to drinking and reading this article:
Struggling to Stay Afloat
This is why I want to get out of the business.
Look, I'd hardly call it a business. Unless you think sitting on a street corner begging for spare change is a business. Sure, some people get famous doing that. But most people just end up dead before their time. Like Classics!
In reply to Bibulus, I'd say that's a promoting-the-visitor-to-TT ad, as you may have suspected. But of course we all have the materials all ready to go, so what's a few extra $$$ postage here or there?
Well, what if they actually do interviews? And what if -- god forbid, since I hate interviews -- I get one? Then I've wasted a whole day of my life (or more) that I'll never get back.
To be clear, I am not all at opposed to promoting a hardworking VAP, especially one who has been roped into departmental service. Not at all opposed. But can't we as a profession manage to effect such a promotion without wasting the time and energy of innocent bystanders?
To be clear, I am not all at opposed to promoting a hardworking VAP, especially one who has been roped into departmental service. Not at all opposed. But can't we as a profession manage to effect such a promotion without wasting the time and energy of innocent bystanders?
April 16, 2013 at 9:34 AM
I heartily agree with this, even if I do sometimes resent the "insider" for getting what s/he deserves! A less "open" process would help those of us who don't have a shot to concentrate our attention on positions that are actually available to us.
A less "open" process would help those of us who don't have a shot to concentrate our attention on positions that are actually available to us.
What happens if the department doesn't run a search and the internal candidate takes a job someplace else?
Well, obviously, the department would communicate directly with its internal candidate in order to make sure that both parties were in agreement. If the insider wanted to move elsewhere, I don't see a department running a search that actively pursued that individual.
Also, that concern does not really apply in this market. Your VAP is not moving elsewhere. Your VAP is extremely lucky to have won a position once. The chances of her getting another one are ridiculously slim.
What happens if the department doesn't run a search and the internal candidate takes a job someplace else?
You're missing a key point about this ad: the timing. By April, the internal candidate will have likely already found another position or run out of better options. If they thought the former might happen, they would have advertised in the fall (or so you would think). If the incumbent had left unexpectedly, they would have probably advertised for another VAP. Thus this looks like a pro forma search to me, but I've been wrong before.
You're missing a key point about this ad: the timing.
I was responding to the general proposition that institutions shouldn't run searches when they're hoping to hire existing temporary faculty; the details of this ad aren't pertinent.
However, the former point that we do not live in a world where candidates get choices is valid.
Institutions that act as if candidates are going to do anything other than bleed out and die for $2 and the chance to maintain an affiliation are delusional.
And that applies even in a place like Lubbock, which is a shit town if there ever was one. I would sacrifice my firstborn for the chance to be surrounded by hundreds of miles of flat nothing and the screams of dying cows.
I was responding to the general proposition that institutions shouldn't run searches when they're hoping to hire existing temporary faculty; the details of this ad aren't pertinent.
April 16, 2013 at 7:12 PM
Try this: "institutions shouldn't have to pretend to run legitimate searches when they're planning to hire existing temporary faculty..."
It was a bit rude to jump on a thread I started with a very specific question about a particular position, add some vague generalities, then lecture me about what is and isn't pertinent. But I'm drunk, so I forgive you, wholeheartedly. For my part, I believe all faculty deserve to be given clear and equitable guidelines for promotion, but does it matter what I think? To them I'm just cheap, disposable labor.
Bibulus, I am drinking a beer with you. I may not have a job or a life, but I do have a beer. Sometimes, that is enough.
And that applies even in a place like Lubbock, which is a shit town if there ever was one. I would sacrifice my firstborn for the chance to be surrounded by hundreds of miles of flat nothing and the screams of dying cows.
I hereby nominate this post for the FV Hall of Fame. It captures so many issues in so few words. Brilliant.
How bad is the job market for individuals with newly minted PhD from the top 15?
Perhaps we should undergraduate encourage students to pursue a career in classics if they managed to get into top programs...
"The top 15" is basically ALL the PhD programs. The top three to (maybe) five are the actually relevant programs, and their graduates are still being left high and dry. I have a PhD from one of those top 3-5 programs, publications, oodles of teaching experience, etc. I still get fucking shit. Never even a campus visit for the tenure track in several years on the market, nor can I actually get a decent VAP.
12:58 Do your think your experience is very common? If not even a top 3 phd can give you an advantage, it seems as if getting anything is a matter of luck nowadays...
Of course a top three PhD gives you an advantage. But frequently that advantage is not enough to get you a one-year job. Ditto for lots of teaching experience, publications, etc.
If this is your first year out, trust me, you think you realize how bad it is, but you don't yet. It's so much worse than that.
If this is your first year out, trust me, you think you realize how bad it is, but you don't yet. It's so much worse than that.
a-fucking-men.
Anyone else probably going to use CAMWS as a last drunken hurrah before saying goodbye to this field forever? Eh? Eh?
Yes, if you are considering whether to start out on the VAP circuit, let me tell you, it is just as risky as graduate school was in the first place.
I wish I could go back and tell my undergrad self, don't do grad school.
I wish I could go back and tell my grad school self, teaching experience will not make enough of a difference.
There were over 100 applicants, at this stage in the year, for Union College's recent VAP. 100 applications! If (if) I manage to apply for 20 VAP's this spring, the simplest odds tell me that my chances of finding employment in academia next year are no better than 20%. If you have any other options, get out now. (If you can afford to continue, more power to you, and I sincerely admire and envy your position.) I say this because last year everyone told me (they meant well) that I would surely be able to find a job once I had more teaching experience under my belt ... it was bad advice, but they meant well.
the previous poster is right on the money. and once you have VAP-ed for awhile, then you may well look like you are 'too experienced' for entry level tt appointments. This is Russian roulette, people, plain and simple. And you don't know which chamber holds the bullet.
The Russian roulette metaphor is inapropos. There you have a 1/6 chance of failure and here you have a 1/6 chance of success.
In truth, I think the odds are higher than that of landing a job (including VAP), about 1/3.
(http://www.apaclassics.org/images/uploads/documents/PlacementParticipation2003-12.pdf)
I agree with 2:17, if you look at the numbers, it's bad, but not apocalyptic.
It sure as hell is apocalyptic if you're on the wrong side of the numbers.
It sure as hell is apocalyptic if you're on the wrong side of the numbers.
I could not agree more. Being on the wrong side of the stats is not a good place. Finding a viable professional path after a life sunk in humanities academe is no picnic. PhD becomes a liability in a big way.
agreed. in planning my own exit, numerous job counselors and head-hunter types tell me again and again that the PhD is a terrible thing for employment beyond specialized venues. they advise hiding it as long as possible in the job search.
Yes, having a Ph.D. makes a non-academic job search somewhat difficult. I am not convinced however that it is possible or even desirable not to draw attention to it. If you decide (or are compelled) to explore options beyond the academy, the time that you spent in graduate school and your degree(s) are realities that you will have to explain--hopefully, they can be presented as assets that will make you successful in whatever you do next. The critical thing, I think, is to be able to say, "I did this (classics). Now I want to do something else, specifically, what your organization does. I will be successful and I will benefit your organization."
Understand that not all employers will be receptive to this. Perhaps only few will be. If there is no logical connection between classics and the job for which you are applying, success should not be assumed. As I've noted, job searches are not easier outside of the academy.
This weekend I listened as a senior faculty member explained to a group of grad students that they should not be concerned at all about the job market because it will certainly recover by the time that they get around to graduating. After all, there will be a massive way of retirements in the coming years ...
um, right. bullshit. those old guys/gals have no idea.
that whole stick and carrot game of "wait for the wave of retirements" has been going for years. selling false hope to the starry-eyed.
The "old guys and gals" have every idea. They know the "wave of retirements" line is bullshit.
This is precisely what I was told when I started graduate school in 1982 -- yes, nineteen-eighty-two. I like to think it's possible that the graduate advisor who fed me that line THEN actually believed it. But those waves of retirement have happened, and happened, and happened again, in the 31 years since I started grad school -- and the re-allocations of tenure lines to other departments have happened just as regularly. No-one can possibly believe in the "wave of retirements" line now. It's beyond shameful that anyone's still saying it.
Faculty who are aware of the situation and nonetheless encourage students to go to grad school are morally equivalent to ex-slave slavers.
I'm hanging it up.
Thanks for all the good times guys.
I wish you the best.
10:33, I hope this refers to leaving the field rather than suicide.
If the former, congrats! You're one of the smart ones.
If the latter, please reconsider. There is life outside Classics.
10:33 here. No, I'm most certainly not referring to suicide. Thanks for your kind words.
Can someone put me out of my misery re: Colgate?
And has anyone heard from Amherst about a second-stage interview?
This is for the 90% of us that struck out this year. How I wish I had the colei to send one of these...
I was too swamped to invest the time to apply for that position at Exeter. Now I'm really glad I didn't waste my time.
I hate that I wasted my life on this.
If the entire thing wasn't so tragic, I would say how cute it is that there are so many out there who actually believed they would land a faculty postion relatively fresh out of school. Folks, the situation has never been great for Classics. I would never tell my students otherwise, 2005 or 2013. If you're willing to grind it out, move around, and serve as adjunct fodder indefinitely, go for it, especially if no mouths depend mainly on you for food. Otherwise, WTF were you thinking?
Anon 2:19 AM ... It bears emphasizing that the situation really has changed dramatically since the financial crisis, and with it, reasonable expectations about one's odds of landing a TT job. When I was in grad school, virtually everyone at my institution landed a TT job within 1-2 years of finishing. Back then, If you got into a top program and could make it through, Classics looked like a pretty good bet. Not so anymore. I came out in 2008, and most of my cohort (myself included) has been bouncing around since then ... or bounced out of the field entirely. It's not just that ratio of jobs to new PhDs and of TT jobs to NTT gigs has become much more unfavorable, but also that there is a much larger backlog of qualified candidates jockeying for positions of any kind than there has been in previous decades. Maybe it's true that "it's never been great", but there's a huge difference between 'it's fairly tough' and 'it's a horrific nightmare' for people who have taken the chance and made the investment.
Yes. Now, recent PhDs from top programs with pubs are very lucky *if* they can land a one-year visiting position.
To 3:44 a.m. -- Just out of curiosity, when were you in grad school? I don't remember any time, in the 31 years I've been in this field, when "virtually everyone" (even from a top-ranked program) landed a t-t within two years. Maybe it happened and I just missed it, but I'm curious about what years you're talking about.
FWIW, when I started grad school in 1982 the graduate advisor said to me, first week there, "you do know you'll never get a tenure-track job, don't you?" He was wrong--I did get a t-t job after several years of adjuncting and several publications. And about half my cohort did. But it took years and the other half (of those who finished) never got the t-t. And there was a sizeable backlog through the 90s of PhDs with years of experience and lots of publications scrambling for jobs, any jobs, and those fresh out of grad school seldom got anything more than a one year and often got nothing.
The classics job market has been a nightmare for decades, though I'm sure it's true that it's even worse now.
Virtually everyone from my top-ranked program has landed a tenure-track job within a couple of years up until like, 2010.
Maybe the place you think is "top-ranked" is not actually so.
The way high-ranked programs can achieve such numbers is to simply not count anyone who does *not* get a tenure-track job within a couple of years. We don't remember those people. Are you sure they went here?
Come on, Tulane. I want to have your sweet sweet three-year renewable Lectureship babies.
To the person with the anecdote about 1982: it looks like that year, in fact, marked the beginning of the only time in post-WWII American when unemployment was even higher than it is now:
https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:US&fdim_y=seasonality:S&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment
I know plenty of people from Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford who have been out for more than two years and still toiling in VAPs or totally washed out. Are these programs "top" enough? Then again, I run more in HIstory/Archaeology circles. Still, these toilers came out of classics departments plus Princeton's AH&A program. Unless one ignores archaeologists, I don't buy the "virtually everyone" since it's nearly impossible to get a TT job straight out of school these days as an archaeologist.
I think you missed the point of that post, which is that "virtually everyone" is to be defined as "everyone who matters" which, in turn, is defined as "everyone who got a job in the first 1-2 years".
So basically a = a.
I'm glad we've all realized how inane this argument is. On an unrelated note, the wiki has been disappointing recently. Can't we move to Google Docs or something more user-friendly?
So, which OCT are you guys taking with you these days when you go sit on the sidewalk and beg for spare change? I'm reading the Thyestes right now, and really wishing I had some tasty children to eat.
As if we really care about grubby archaeologists and their culture courses! Bwahahaha!
Have you all seen this yet? Seems like there is still some delusion about what awaits most graduate students on the "market."
http://www.rackham.umich.edu/blog/entry/were_flattered_but_please_make_the_articles_stop/
Again, if you are of the class of people who get jobs in finance coming out of Berkeley, then getting a graduate degree in Classics is one of the most rewarding things that you can do with your time. After all, these are the "liberal arts," because academia has never been a profession in the real sense. It is a calling for those who can afford to do it.
For the sake of those who do not have the means or the opportunities should their Classics career fizzle, it is positively harmful for us not to be clear about the job prospects in our field. For those who can afford to do it, this is a wonderful life.
Plus she's a fucking graduate student. Those articles that say not to go come from people who have actually experienced the market year after year. People who are literally wandering around depressed and unemployed, a shiny PhD their only comfort.
Re: the original point. There is a very definite divide in my graduate program between the people who have had some taste of the market and the younger generation, the optimism of which seems completely undiminished by anything they hear from us.
i don't think someone who is still insulated inside of a graduate program and has not yet completed a terminal degree can really appreciate the stakes of the game. this article smacks of naivete in a serious way. why would Rackham post this? it belongs in the op-ed of the undergrad newspaper.
waaaaahhhhh waaaaaaahhhhhh
I think the moderator should weigh in here. Regardless of a persons position, prospects, or presumed naïveté it is tacky and discourteous to attack him/her here by name. Why begrudge someone their hope, anyway?
This article drives home exactly the point it is arguing against: younger Classics grad students still do not understand the situation they are getting themselves into. Then again, how could they? The reality is harsher than any fiction.
Jesus Christ, what a bunch of fucking jackals.
I imagine that at least some comments will be wiped, but if you are one of the people who were directly insulting the person in question by name or carping at their picture—carping at their picture, for fuck's sake—I don't see any harm in scraping together an apology and recovering a little dignity. It shouldn't cost you much; you can do it anonymously.
Yes. I vehemently disagree with everything about the article, but the personal attacks were not called for.
Although I took the profile pic comment as sarcastic, mocking the pile-on that had just happened. But maybe it's not. Poe's law and all.
2:00 am is definitely right. Where's the moderator? It's embarrassing that these ugly personal comments are still up.
We have removed some of the more unhelpful comments, but have kept the link to the article up.
After discussion we have decided that this was not such a clear-cut case of FV policy violation. The article itself is a public document, and its author argued her case knowing that her words would likely be disseminated well beyond the boundaries of the Rackham Blog.
So, please continue to comment and respond, but please do so in a more respectful and useful manner.
When she writes "we teach at a top-tier university", the author of this infamous piece clearly sees herself, earnestly, as a colleague, as a free citizen of academic society. As a VAP, I have conversely come to see myself as a slave, a slave in the Roman sense of the word. Think about it. Back then if you had a kind master or if you were bright and literate, you might have found decent circumstances and rewarding work teaching Greek to your master's children. Your master might have treated you as an equal (e.g. Cicero and Tiro); you might eventually be freed or even buy your freedom. Servitude, under the right conditions, was not necessarily the worst possible existence. But you could also be treated poorly or unceremoniously cast off, legally and without right of redress. In academia, until you are on the tenure track (or tenured?), you are subhuman, even though it does not always seem so.
Even the worst VAPs are not slavery. Some people have ACTUALLY horrible lives. You just think you do.
I have a full teaching load as an adjunct at a R1 uni. I work all the time. I only make about $25K before taxes. No one has a chain on my neck, but they may as well. The avg. salary for an assistant manager at the golden arches is $29,749. when i am there eating from the dollar menu, don't think the irony isn't painful.
Probably not of much interest as there is no posting to follow in the job streams, but has a decision been made for the Heidelberg phd and postdoc positions advertised a few months ago?
As a VAP, I have conversely come to see myself as a slave, a slave in the Roman sense of the word. Think about it. Back then if you had a kind master or if you were bright and literate, you might have found decent circumstances and rewarding work teaching Greek to your master's children. Your master might have treated you as an equal (e.g. Cicero and Tiro); you might eventually be freed or even buy your freedom. Servitude, under the right conditions, was not necessarily the worst possible existence. But you could also be treated poorly or unceremoniously cast off, legally and without right of redress. In academia, until you are on the tenure track (or tenured?), you are subhuman, even though it does not always seem so.
Are you just trolling us, or do you really not have the first clue about slavery?
But yes, you're right. Having a VAP is just like having no civil rights whatever and being the property of another human being, without any choice in the kind of work you do, subject to murder, assault, rape, sale, and confiscation of one's family, with the whole weight of the community and the state apparatus defending your owner's right to do whatever the fuck he wanted to you.
I am sure that there was a tiny minority of Roman slaves in a position "under the right conditions" that was, on balance, more comfortable than being a free person in a really shitty circumstance. But the thing about slavery is that you don't get to seek out the right conditions. If you don't like your backbreaking job and cell out on the estate, you don't get to apply for the job on the household staff of the nice guy who just wants to fuck you up the ass sometimes. You don't get to choose because you are a fucking slave and being a slave means you have no control over your own person and no recourse.
I don't know how a person who studies Greco-Roman antiquity gets away without understanding anything about slavery, nor perhaps more importantly how a person who is (I assume) a resident of a country where slavery hasn't even been gone for 150 years yet thinks that being a slave is basically like having a job with relatively low pay in proportion to your education and a limited term contract.
Do please get back to us, though, when a dean smashes your front teeth out in a fit of passion and sells your children to a dean in Mississippi but the cops refuse to do anything because they do not recognize you as having any rights.
I swear to God, I can't even begin to imagine the combination of ignorance and self-absorption it would take to even have this idea cross your mind.
Can people just calm down? The poster was so right above who talked about a pack of jackals.
What do you expect? We're past breaking.
It's amazing how relatively civil FV continues to be, given market conditions.
don't you know classics is a magical and wonderful world where we all ride to work, carefree, on the backs of our rainbow complected unicorns as the birds, dwarfs, jungle animals, sea creatures, and talking rodents sing sweet, melodious songs of harmony, love, and ambivalent irrelevance? So c'mon, man, like don't kill our buzz with those real world carps about living wages, security, and the worry over your next meal. and, like, play nice 'cuz no one in real academic is ever caustic, harsh or downright mean.
Καὶ τί σοι πρῶτον, ὦ φιλότης, ἢ τί ὕστατον, φασί, καταλέξω τούτων ἃ πάσχειν ἢ ποιεῖν ἀνάγκη τοὺς ἐπὶ μισθῷ συνόντας κἀν ταῖς τῶν εὐδαιμόνων τούτων φιλίαις ἐξεταζομένους – εἰ χρὴ φιλίαν τὴν τοιαύτην αὐτῶν δουλείαν ἐπονομάζειν;
Can people just calm down? The poster was so right above who talked about a pack of jackals.
I hope you weren't worried about old Heraclitus, because I love it; after all, as someone said somewhere -- help me out here, Anon. 11:08, with your superior knowledge of classical antiquity -- peiora passus sum.
I swear to God, I can't even begin to imagine the combination of ignorance and self-absorption it would take to even have this idea cross your mind.
I will freely admit to ignorance, at least, as any good Classicist would, but neither of the qualities you cite compelled me to think this way; rather it was years of service as a VAP at a pretty decent place with a livable wage and mostly supportive colleagues. You would do well to reflect upon how even such relatively advantageous conditions can turn an optimistic and ambitious young person into a terrible shell of a human being.
That said, I fear I was inarticulate in my original post. I see my life as *analogous* to that of a slave, *if* we imagine academia as ancient Rome. (American slavery was quite different, as you, an expert on slavery, surely know.) To pursue such an analogy, we must of course replace ancient physical punishment with modern psychological and emotional abuse, and ancient "civil rights", if that term is not anachronistic, with the academic system of tenure and promotion. We must replace an owner smashing in your teeth and selling your children with the dean offering you a new contract involving a 50% pay cut and the loss of health (dental!) benefits for you and your family. Yes, VAPs can and do apply for and attain other positions; so too could a Roman slave under the right conditions buy his own freedom. But he did so by amassing a peculium, through hard work and frugality, of course, but also through his master's kindness; so too does your ability as a VAP to network and build a decent CV depend to a large degree on a fair course load, understanding colleagues and support for professional development. Whether you actually receive these benefits varies widely from place to place and year to year.
My message to the innocent author of this notorious blog post and to any like-minded young person is as follows. Yes, academia does have a coherent system of rights and a tradition of offering young scholars a clear and equitable path to promotion and to a lengthy and rewarding career. But this system and this tradition apply only to those on the tenure-track, who now represent less than a quarter of all college instructors. For the rest of us, there is no expectation of long term employment, even if we perform well; nor must our superiors feel obliged to help us advance our careers (although many do it anyways) or offer us any explanation when our livelihood is suddenly taken away. If you accept a contingent position, you are agreeing to forgo rights that your "colleagues" will enjoy. Thus the analogy to ancient slavery.
Nailed it.
In one?
Anyone had any luck with administrative assistant jobs? Or is the PhD too off-putting?
The Ph.D. is probably too off-putting for admin. assistant jobs. It's really not the best training for such jobs, in my opinion. But, there's no harm in applying. I would think that success is more likely in applications to smaller organizations.
In my experience admin assistant jobs for PhDs are tough sells. the HR people make funny faces.
I see my life as *analogous* to that of a slave, *if* we imagine academia as ancient Rome. ... To pursue such an analogy, we must of course replace ancient physical punishment with modern psychological and emotional abuse, and ancient "civil rights", if that term is not anachronistic, with the academic system of tenure and promotion.
OK, well, relatedly, it has just occurred to me that the time I got held up for my wallet is analogous to the Bataan Death March. There were guns at both, and I really didn't want to lose my wallet, and the POWs really didn't want to go on the march. Also, winning the lottery is identical to getting struck by lightning, as both experiences are unlikely, almost certainly unanticipated, and change a person's future a great deal.
My point isn't that you can't grope to find an analogy between one thing and another—apples and oranges are both fruit!—it's that certain analogies are so strained that they are absurd and useless. An analogy between being a slave and having a job that you hate as a free person in a liberal democracy is that kind of analogy, and it's only possible to think that analogy makes any kind of sense if you don't understand what slavery is.
Finally, 1). no, the concept of rights inhering in citizen status is not anachronistic in any way 2). peculium had no legal force and was the master's property, to be reclaimed by him whenever he wanted without giving you your freedom, if he so preferred 3). why do you think you'd get to choose to be one of the tiny fraction of slaves for whom peculium to purchase freedom would even be a relevant concept? 4). American slavery's being different in that it was wrapped up with white supremacist ideology doesn't mean that servitude in the ancient world was in any sense a desirable condition, it just means it wasn't also about racism against Africans and 5). I am not remotely an expert on slavery or even a historian, which makes this especially awkward.
I don't think the poster above understands the difference between analogy and comparison.
I am not remotely an expert on slavery or even a historian, which makes this especially awkward.
Are you embarrassed for me? For my part, I would be glad to be cured of my ignorance of ancient slavery, especially by you, Anon. 2:17 am (!), and if I've learned anything about the topic from our discussion, be assured that I will count it as a blessing. I'm a bit puzzled that you find this manner of speaking so unnatural and offensive when it has a good classical pedigree (Tacitus, Ag. 2, servitus OLD 2), but maybe you think that ancient and modern society are in no way analogous, in which case, no need to read any further. I fear, as the previous poster mentioned, that you believe I am comparing the entirety of my life to that of the ancient slave, when I am really drawing a fairly narrow analogy between conditions of employment, a subtle but important difference. Maybe this will be clearer if I address your points 2 & 3 directly. The ability to amass a peculium was indeed, as I noted, dependent on a master's kindness; so too you will not succeed in moving from a VAP to T-T without institutional support, which institutions are not obligated to provide contingent faculty! Nor is there any guarantee that the work you are doing will advance your career, because there are no guidelines for promotion; many T-T positions seem simply to want someone young and without the taint of temporary employment. But wait, you say, only a tiny minority of slaves could ever dream of buying their freedom; yet how many students entering graduate school today will wind up on the tenure track? Is it more than 7%, about the percentage of college instructors who are non-tenured T-T faculty? Even those of us in comfortable VAPs are a tiny minority of contingent academic labor. CUNY alone employs 10,500 adjuncts, under notorious conditions.
So I not at all concerned about my "citizen rights", nor am I really interested in ancient slavery, for all I have learned about it from you. I am simply disgusted by a corrupt system that imparts rights, often at random, to some but not others and yet still manages to suborn talented young people to support and defend it.
Coming to a Classics department near you!
"The 'P' is silent."
2:17 am (!)
2:17 AM seems like a perfectly civilized time to be commenting. My comment was posted at 11:17 PM where I am, however. I will leave it to you to fathom this mystery.
I'm a bit puzzled that you find this manner of speaking so unnatural and offensive when it has a good classical pedigree (Tacitus, Ag. 2, servitus OLD 2)
This was a ludicrous analogy at the time. There was not a man of the senatorial elite under Domitian who would have entertained for a second the idea of trading his existence for a slave’s until the moment he got word that palace agents were coming to demand his suicide, and even then if the choice had been offered of slavery for life few would have taken it. It’s a metaphor born of privilege, used by people who didn’t have to worry about literally being slaves, and the second they were confronted with the choice they would have recognized and acknowledged the difference between the metaphor and reality. And there are all kinds of manners of speaking common in antiquity that people don’t use now, because they’re offensive (if you have not succeeded in identifying any of these yet, consult your female colleagues for help).
But listen, if you want to have a comment thread where having a temporary academic position bears interesting points of analogy to slavery, far be it from me to object. Relatedly, just as a suggestion of some low-hanging fruit, let me point out that nobody has drawn any points of edifying resemblance between having a VAP and living under Jim Crow, and that seems like an underexploited analogy: surely there’s some illuminating point to be made there from the contrast between actual unequal treatment and formal rhetoric of equality. Sure, some unenlightened people may say that it’s outrageous to draw that kind of analogy, but you just have to keep pushing on in the conviction that you’re not drawing any kind of moral equivalence between the two situations; you’re just pointing out ways in which they resemble each other!
I find it hilarious that you apparently have the capacity to become offended on behalf of people who have been dead for at least 1,500 years.
Yeah, it sucked to be an ancient slave. But unlike Jim Crow, that shit is *long* gone. Cf. the term vandalism, the political incorrectness of which no one gives a shit about.
I am very glad to hear that you are going to bed a reasonable hour, my nameless friend. I can tell you with some certainty that sleepless nights lead to ludicrous analogies in the Tacitean style, if I may flatter my observation with such a precedent.
I am starting to understand where you are coming from, for which I am very grateful. Choice seems to play a key role in your argument; if people choose a life in academia (and they clearly do so, in droves) and if most of them (75% or so) end up in non-tenure-track positions, then clearly academic life must be choice-worthy and therefore in no way analogous to something like ancient slavery, which few noble Romans would have preferred to death. This, to me, is one of the great mysteries of our little world. If we believe this thread, undergraduates are constantly discouraged from undertaking graduate study. They are told, or should be, that their job prospects will be dim, that they will be lucky to get one offer, that professors make very little money. If they read this blog, they would know the hours are long, the work often little more than drudgery and getting stuck in an endless series of temporary positions is a real possibility. They should really know, from Fallen Classicist et al., that it is very difficult to leave academia once you have finished your PhD and taken an academic job. If they even glanced at the Chronicle and other such publications, they would know that things are getting worse for college faculty -- often much worse. Yet young people willfully ignore all this information and leave stable and lucrative positions outside of academia, in the vague hope of something more fulfilling. Not only that, they complain bitterly and publicly that all this doom and gloom is depressing them! Is it the allure of the title "Professor" ? Is it the power of wishful thinking? I've tried and failed (so far) to find employment outside of academia, so I persist in my academic job search. But I can't understand why anyone would choose this lifestyle as blithely and recklessly as our intrepid blogger apparently has. There is a huge, unbridgeable gap between the reality I experience daily and the perception of academic life that prevails among the young and the innocent.
Correction: *at* a reasonable hour.
Did Georgetown fill its position? Does anybody know? thanks.
In a similar vein, anyone have any intelligence on the VAP position at NYU? Deadline was nearly 2 months ago, I'm guessing that means they probably have a decision by now.
Has the damage vis a vis a non-academic career already been done once you get the PhD? Will it hurt me further to keep VAPing a few more years, in terms of possible future non-academic employment?
I think that it is not particularly likely that a number of years post Ph.D. of work as a VAP or adjunct will increase opportunities for non-academic employment. For most jobs, work as a VAP or adjunct will not provide skills or experience that is directly sought by non-academic employers.
That said, I am not convinced that working as a VAP or adjunct will be particularly harmful for a non-academic search. I have some of this experience. Many of the same questions will be asked in interviews (e.g., why you want to change careers).
But, do realize that there there is no general pattern for how classics Ph.Ds. find non-academic employment, particularly if additional education is not involved. When a position both well suited for a classicist and at an organization open to employing a (fallen) classicist might come along is not all that predictable, but it does happen with some frequency. When these opportunities present themselves, it may well be worth applying, whether you are just finishing (or have just finished) a Ph.D. or are working as a VAP. Just don't assume that you can base your entire job search on these positions. Their availability just isn't that predictable. Apply for classics jobs, also. And, think about whether other training or education might be worthwhile.
I wonder why there are so few names on the wiki. It is May--game's over.
If you're well-rounded as a person (definitely not a given with Classicists these days), VAPing can lead to administrative jobs, especially at universities. Besides organizing a symposium, were you involved with administrative tasks, both formal and informal, at your institutions of higher learning? Most grad programs have several of these types that seem to hold the student community together.
As long as you didn't flame out spectacularly or burn bridges, many organizations will look at your understanding of the inner workings of universities (if it exists) as a big plus. Universities need academic advisors, assistant/associate deans, etc. and in my experience, many in these posts have little idea of what they're doing outside of their own undergraduate experience or what they might have learned after years on the job.
It is May--game's over.
This got me thinking ... when I get my tenth interview of the year sometime in the next couple weeks -- it's bound to happen -- should I feel like a total piece of sh*t? What a joke this whole process has been.
Yep. I just got my upteenth interview. At this point I just get them and am like, "Fuck you. You fuckers aren't going to hire me, you just want to see me dance. Fuck off. I've made my peace with failure and don't need you dicks getting my hopes up a-fucking-GAIN."
I am the 'it is may--game is over' person. I truly did not mean to make the VAPs feel bad. I meant to say that the game is over for the tenure-track positions. Good luck to those who are still trying to get a position for next yr.
Sometimes I wonder if we could, collectively, do something about this horrible process. Say we all refuse to do the sessional teaching and the VAPS and all that comes with that.
At this point I just get them and am like, "Fuck you. You fuckers aren't going to hire me, you just want to see me dance. Fuck off. I've made my peace with failure and don't need you dicks getting my hopes up a-fucking-GAIN."
Wow. With that attitude, it's hard to imagine why you're not an SC's dream interviewee.
Well, that seems fair, since they are typically not my ideal interviewers.
I disagree; I think you're poised for success. Believe me, I've been the model of decorum and congeniality. Hasn't worked. Comes across as effete. Time to try insouciance and bombast. Time to say "F*** you, just give me the job! Who you gonna hire, this loser?" Like this.
I'm joking, but only just. I wish you the best, because I've been there.
Yes. Considering they really aren't going to hire me no matter what, my attitude is hardly relevant. So I might as well vent some of that frustration with a bunch of fucks on the internet as I continue to apply for minimum-wage jobs.
Big picture, people, big picture. Those of us forced out now because we aren't hired are the lucky ones. Would you rather get pushed out years down the road, with yet more totally useless experience under your belt?
Looking back, what do you think the job-of-the year was? Based on what factors? What were the stinkers? Or did a promising job turn out to be a stinker post-interview?
Stinkers: Those cancelled Harvard searches. Way to distract lots of people from their other interview prep for no reason.
You truly still have much to learn if you don't understand the nature of Harvard searches. Go ask your advisors and dry out the backside of your ears a bit.
As a historian, I'm glad about the continuing evolution of classics. It's ridiculous that some twenty-something probie lands a job out of grad school because they focused on one chapter of Vergil and had an advisor with connections. I suspect this group is the one crying the most on here. News flash, this "terrible market" is pretty much how it's always been for historians and archaeologists. Learn to live with the new reality that increasingly few universities want hyper specialized philologists who don't even want to teach "large" language classes and think it's their ultimate right to teach upper level classes with several students. Welcome to the 21st century - boo hoo.
Whatever, archaeologists are cocksuckers and so are you.
Fuck you. I don't have to deal with your shit. I can literally go cut my throat out right fucking now and never have to listen to you ever again. You are a joke, you powerless piece of shit. You are all fucking jokes. I don't have to stay here with you fucks. The dead don't fucking need jobs. Get back to grading whatever your undergrads shat out last night and leave me alone.
Dear 12:46 pm,
Vergil did not write in chapters.
Sincerely,
Your local lover of language
p.s. I just landed a job teaching high school and am sooooooo looking forward to not having to deal with academics who understand neither the 21st century nor the value of academia. Best of luck to you all!
I'll give Anonymous 1:06 a TR of 1.5/10.
.5 for remaining anonymous, and 1 for use of foul language. Otherwise, pretty fucking weak.
TR = Troll Rating
"Vergil did not write in chapters."
As if 99.999999999999999999% of the world cares. But thank God we have hundreds of Virgilists out there to keep the light of enlightenment lit for us so civilization doesn't collapse.
Wait, the barbaric world is beginning to see that we need hundreds of Virgilists? Bastards. Heathens.
p.s. I just landed a job teaching high school
Good, that's where the vast majority of you should be. It's an absolute joke that so many even up to now have landed TT jobs at research institutions. The vast majority of research has been weak sauce with little innovation for decades. It's about time everyone woke up, including our own discipline. Let's hope it hasn't been too late once the dust settles.
We really need to get prospective and current graduate students to read this blog and ask themselves: do you really want to turn yourself into one of these people?
That would help with our overpopulation a lot.
The only perspective they need is that they're not all that special and they'll need to be more special than ever before, especially in the eyes of non-acolytes, to land a job in ten years.
Oh, and I suppose you're so special?
Spare me, you arrogant fuck.
Well, I am tenured and I don't even study Vergil!
If you're tenured now, you got a TT job back when that was easy as fvck. How impressive. I bet you even have a publication.
And you obviously can't play in your own league if you're coming here to bitch. That's like me hanging out with undergrads.
because they focused on one chapter of Vergil
That's not true in all cases. Some of them only worked on a single canto of Herodotus or a single ode of Livy.
Personally, I'm not impressed by this kind of small ball. I don't take somebody seriously unless they've worked on all of Pindar's novels or all of the short stories of Aristotle.
5:17 p.m. said "If you're tenured now, you got a TT job back when that was easy as fvck."
Let's see -- time to tenure is usually seven years. So 5:17 thinks that it was "easy as fvck" to get a TT job in 2005 or thereabouts? Really???
Compared to now, yes. 2005 was fucking paradise. Look at the goddamn APA numbers and see for yourself.
The job of the year was the Michigan papyrology job. First, of course, it was t-t at a top program. But more importantly, whereas Greek and Roman languages, literature, history, and art/archaeology can be taught at countless places, this was one of the best jobs for a papyrologist anywhere in the country because there are only 2-3 other comparable collections, and it might be years before a similar position opens up again.
Okay, you may all get back to your potty-mouthed tirades now.
I wouldn't call 402 candidates chasing 104 t-t jobs (the numbers from 2004-2005) "fucking paradise" or "easy as fuck to get a job." MUCH better than 2011-2012, no question. No argument there. But "easy as fuck"? There were still 3 candidates who did not get one of those t-t jobs for every 1 who did.
Ok, but a lot of Classicists have weird issues with social skills and endurance which make "fuck" harder than usual. I think Ovid wrote about it somewhere.
"That's like me hanging out with undergrads."
If you truly believe that a recently tenured faculty member conversing with recent PhDs is akin to the latter group hanging out with undergrads, you truly are wet behind the ears. For one, tenured faculty can bang recent grads with impunity while undergrads for the latter is dangerously close to jail bait.
Can you bang us through Famae?
*clenches carefully*
Hi everyone! I'm a Classicist! Look at how relevant I am!
Well, if you're like a certain classicist from Stanford, you get invited to Langley by the CIA. If you're the billionth person to come out with a "new" translation of Vergil, you deserve to be ignored by almost all of humanity. Hopefully, search committees will start ignoring these people as well so we'll stop encouraging such inbred, irrelevant research.
Geez, this guy's a fucking parrot over here.
*SQUAWK*
Dear Historian (since you apparently think this is what you are),
The Aeneid is a profound reflection on the dangers to which a militaristic society is prone. Do you not think this might be relevant at the CIA?
Sincerely,
Your local lover of literature
Okay, a different ancient historian chiming in here. "The Aeneid is a profound reflection on the dangers to which a militaristic society is prone"? Can I please have an explanation of what makes it so? I have read it and taught it more than a few times, but don't see that. I suspect that you are reading into it something that is not there and then misusing the phrase "reflection on" (which implies that Vergil intended his work to be read that way), but perhaps I am just not as well-versed in Vergil as I should be.
Anyway, at risk of elevating this conversation, I thought I would ask for a quick lecture on Vergil.
You do not have to be well-versed in Vergil. You just have to know how to read.
ille, oculis postquam saeui monimenta doloris
exuuiasque hausit, furiis accensus et ira
terribilis: 'tune hinc spoliis indute meorum
eripiare mihi? Pallas te hoc uulnere, Pallas
immolat et poenam scelerato ex sanguine sumit.'
hoc dicens ferrum aduerso sub pectore condit
feruidus; ast illi soluuntur frigore membra
uitaque cum gemitu fugit indignata sub umbras.
The life of Turnus is brought before the reader in the closing line. We hear his groan, and we are confronted with his indignation, which continues as he becomes nothing more than a shade. The poem ends at this point, and you are left to piece together what remains.
If you choose to think that the end is meaningless and that the heroism of Aeneas is all that matters, so much the worse for you and your students. If you make sense of why the poem ends with the death of Turnus, then you will see that the end of the poem (ferrum condit) completes Aeneas's mission (dum conderet urbem) and reveals all the anxiety that an educated and successful Italian who rose to prominence under Augustus could feel.
I don't understand how history and archaeology could possibly matter if literature doesn't matter.
What, we don't care about ancient people's *thoughts* but we do care about who won what battle and what people liked to eat, and what the tax rates were in this period and how many columns this temple had?
It all has value, taken together. Certainly philology would be much the poorer without historians and archaeologists, but the converse is most certainly true as well. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just ridiculous.
True, but do we need ten philologists for every ancient historian and archaeologist, especially in light of where new discoveries and interdisciplinary collaborations are taking place? Do we still believe that 90% of the curriculum should be literature based to match this ideology? Is it crazy to propose that I teach more than baby Latin and intro to Roman History? I don't think even administrators believe this is in the best interest of classics, yet we keep on pumping them out and requesting lines with this ratio in mind.
If you believe that the CIA would ever be interested in one word of the Aeneid, you have your head further up your ass than even the most classical of classicists.
Anonymous 3:16, I'm not convinced that your reading of the ending is necessarily the best, and a quick Google search certainly reveals it is not the only one out there. Also, you are going from a statement about "dangers" faced by a "militaristic society" to "anxiety" faced by Roman elites under (the murderous?) Augustus -- hardly the same thing. I'm curious what others think. If I'm convinced that the "Aeneid" is a "reflection" on "militaristic society" I will most certainly teach it that way in the future; otherwise, I will stick with my own perfectly reasonable approach (which does not mindlessly focus on the heroism of Aeneas, I should note).
Who the fuck cares what the CIA is interested in? Torturing random people mostly, I gather.
Well, the word on the street is that the AIA has started its own career services department. Good riddance, grubby archaeologists. Don't let the door hit you as you crawl back into the trenches where you came from.
I worry that this puerile and inane bickering ignores a much greater threat to the profession of college professor in general. Consider for example this quotation from the recent New Yorker article on MOOCs:
"If overloaded institutions diverted their students to online education, it would reduce faculty, and associated expenses."
and also further on:
“Imagine you’re at South Dakota State,” he said, “and they’re cash-strapped, and they say, ‘Oh! There are these HarvardX courses. We’ll hire an adjunct for three thousand dollars a semester, and we’ll have the students watch this TV show.’ Their faculty is going to dwindle very quickly. Eventually, that dwindling is going to make it to larger and less poverty-stricken universities and colleges. The fewer positions are out there, the fewer Ph.D.s get hired. The fewer Ph.D.s that get hired—well, you can see where it goes. It will probably hurt less prestigious graduate schools first, but eventually it will make it to the top graduate schools. . . . If you have a smaller graduate program, you can be assured the deans will say, ‘First of all, half of our undergraduates are taking moocs. Second, you don’t have as many graduate students. You don’t need as many professors in your department of English, or your department of history, or your department of anthropology, or whatever.’ And every time the faculty shrinks, of course, there are fewer fields and subfields taught. And, when fewer fields and subfields are taught, bodies of knowledge are neglected and die. You can see how everything devolves from there.”
I'm not saying this is definitely going to happen -- you might say it's a bit alarmist. But it nonetheless underlines for me that the goal of many, many administrators is to reduce what they spend on faculty in any way possible -- and that leaves most of us in this venerable field very vulnerable, no matter what we study.
Well, the word on the street is that the AIA has started its own career services department. Good riddance, grubby archaeologists. Don't let the door hit you as you crawl back into the trenches where you came from.
boy, someone here is an asshole. oh right. classicists
Anonymous 12:02 a.m., the archaeologists left because of the incompetent way the APA's been running things. Blame the APA for turning a blind eye to the problem for so long, and not knowing how to say "You're fired" to someone richly deserving of it, for creating a situation that made this split possible.
(I myself am an APA member, not an AIA member.)
"Who the fuck cares what the CIA is interested in? Torturing random people mostly, I gather."
This sounds like a heroically contrarian thing to say, but the CIA's daily budget is probably our entire discipline's for the year. More importantly, what the CIA says and desires influences the DoD, NSA, etc. and vice versa. Eventually, this bleeds down to the NSF, NIH, NEH, etc.
As a discipline, we've been largely immune to public sentiment due to wealthy donors. They are disappearing and where they still exist, their influence has greatly diminished (or they just don't really care all that much anymore about us).
So yes, we can say fuck the CIA, but this hopefully doesn't reflect what we generally think and do with authorities. Unless a classicist actually goes to Langley and explains why our discipline matters, it's obtuse to think "if they were smart, they would have mined the Aeneid" really cuts it.
Fuck the tea party classicists out there. Let the pruning begin. What are you going to do? Get rid of the one archaeologist and/or historian in your department (if you have any) to save one of your five Latinists? If so, let the discipline die. It richly deserves to suffer a slow and painful death if we're still partying like it's 1899.
the reason classics is outmoded and irrelevant as a discipline is not because of its subject matter but, rather, because of the prevailing attitude of the majority of its sorry practitioners. Many of those problems are reflected in the comments and spats that have appeared on this wretched blog over the past years.
"the reason classics is outmoded and irrelevant as a discipline"...
This is frankly childish.
Let's bear in mind that *all of academia* is going through this crisis together. Universities don't want to hire full-time, tenure-track faculty. Full stop. Archaeologists may blame philologists for the state of the job market, but all of the evidence points to a more general malaise.
As Heraclitus alluded to above, there are no winners on the labor side of the equation in the academy of tomorrow. That's the point of MOOCs and a lot of other "innovative" approaches to higher ed. They're about saving money, and the savings they generate for institutions will come largely at the expense of workers.
The sooner we realize this and work together to fight back and, if possible, *grow* the discipline in ways that serve the interests of faculty and students, the better off we'll be.
PS - One thing that really does weaken the integrity of any field is to countenance the presence in it of the kind of prideful ignorance that can sneer at dissertations focusing only on "one chapter of Virgil". If you're unable to understand why that attitude is offensive and brutish, then in my view you don't deserve to be teaching students about the ancient world.
The sooner we realize this and work together to fight back and, if possible, *grow* the discipline in ways that serve the interests of faculty and students, the better off we'll be.
right. the ur-discipline of elite snobbery that still sneers at those who pronunciation of ancient words is slightly off will suddenly learn to cooperate internally? what about the Latin-focused faculty in my R-1 department who HATE archaeology faculty and grad students SO MUCH that they go out of their way (again and again) to disadvantage their enemies who focus on material culture and history as opposed to Lacanian analysis. If the OP believes that it is in cooperation that the salvation of classics lies, then you may as well get the bodybag ready.
And what, exactly, are the virtues of incredibly narrowly construed literary theses? Really? Would you advise historians to write a thesis focused only on 5 years of history? Regardless, the contextualization of such narrow approaches is truly problematic.
"Let's bear in mind that *all of academia* is going through this crisis together. Universities don't want to hire full-time, tenure-track faculty. Full stop. Archaeologists may blame philologists for the state of the job market, but all of the evidence points to a more general malaise."
Yeah, we get it. Academia is evolving and we all rise and sink with the tide. The only problem is that regardless of what the tide is doing, there is something fundamentally wrong with the classics ship. I used to hope that it was slowly changing, but it's obvious to me now that the discipline is largely producing the same tea party clones who know little outside of an increasingly narrow worldview. Even if the majority recognized that something was fundamentally wrong AND had the desire to do something about it, they wouldn't know the first place to start.
I would say that the gratuitous use of the phrase "tea party clones" itself shows striking narrowmindedness, and a good bit of elitism might possibly be inferred as well. Not to mention ignorance of the language, as "Tea Party" should be capitalized.
Exhibit A
Yep, we're going down and I'm not just saying this because I'm on my second VAP. I suppose it might be perceived as disingenuous since I'm apparently "the man" as a Hellenist, but I honestly think you historians and archaeologists will make out okay. Your research and teaching have traction with the general public and you admittedly have a surplus of new and interesting questions to ask. I exist because classics departments exist and I don't doubt within a century that some greatly watered down version of me will be teaching in some monstrous languages and literatures department.
Way to fall on your sword. It's wishy-washy philologists like you that will be the end of classics.
Not to change the topic, but what is going on with the Wiki? It seems to have devolved to reporting rejection letters. Are people just sick of updating it? Or has there been no real process for this latest group of jobs (Rutgers, NYU, Temple, Tulane?, Wheaton?, Iowa? etc.)?
I bet none of those were real jobs, just opportunities for "search committees" to laugh at us.
Sure seems like it in the case of Rutgers, NYU, and possibly Iowa ... and Temple ... ugh. What I do is so worthless.
You're almost there.
The important thing to remember is that while everything you do and are is indeed worthless, the same truth also applies to literally everyone else.
Do any of you other unemployeds have any inkling what you'll do for the year?
dancing of the exotic kind
Lucky. I'd make negative money if I tried that.
You never know until you show them the full Caesar
Perhaps not so useless after all -- and determined by "SCIENCE"!!!
http://newsweek.tumblr.com/post/21784902381/the-13-most-useful-college-majors-as-determined-by
Who the fuck cares what makes a useful fucking bachelor's degree? We didn't stop there. We got PhDs like fucking idiots.
Oh, grow up, and gain some perspective while you're at it. Times are tough, lots of people can't find jobs they trained for. Have you been paying attention to what's happening with law school grads? Many of them are having trouble finding jobs, even those from the best law schools, because firms aren't hiring. Sure, they're in better positions than we are, but it's still essentially the same thing: they got a graduate education in a difficult area, and cannot find the sort of job they had expected.
We're not special, and it's really getting old that some of us can't stop bellyaching.
Yeah, I'm not sure people being upset at not being able to eat is a characteristic peculiar to childhood.
Go make yourself a fucking sandwich.
A recent poster asked what those without jobs would be doing "for the year." I took this to mean that the person would somehow make ends meet "for the year" before searching for another job this fall, praying for that job during the spring, and likely being disappointed---and again wondering what they would do for the year after.
My advice: quit while you're ahead. Go back to school. Get some sciences. Check out what careers are "hot" and likely to continue to need workers.
Hey man, I was there, wondering what I'd do "for the year." Looking back, I was like a drug addict waiting for the next fix, hoping and praying for that next high, maybe the eternal high.
Believe it or not, I'm happier now that I've quit than I ever was teaching in VAPs or post-docs and itching for the next score---the one that never came.
Obviously leaving Classics is the smart bet for virtually everyone, even those who have employment for next year and a fair number of those on the tenure track. But the idea of going back to school for any reason, after so much of my life pointlessly wasted on schooling, makes me want to vomit. I am hoping I can fall into *something* without having to go be Pierce Hawthorne.
So does anyone know where things stand with the Berkeley history position (which, oddly, isn't even on the wiki)?
A word of encouragement to those considering high school teaching. There's not much (any) prestige, and you can't teach the kind of awesome boutique courses you pitched in your cover letters, but it sure as hell beats some of the alternatives (adjuncting? re-training?). I started high school teaching with the idea that it was temporary, but it's turned out to be a pretty sweet gig. The kids are (mostly) smart and respectful, the campus is beautiful, the money is decent, my weekends are (usually) my own. I still get to teach and learn about the ancient world. Losing the intellectual rigor and social esteem of academia is more than made up for by the ability to finally relax and enjoy life. And the more high school students we get interested in classics, the more demand for college courses, the better for our colleagues in higher ed and our discipline as a whole. Win, win, win. It's not the right fit for everyone, but if it interests you, go for it!
I can't imagine hanging out in the shadow of the university in high school teaching, publishing, or library science like some Dickensian urchin peering through a window on a feast. Better, I think, to break free and move on with your life.
You should not give the impression that high school teaching is easier than college teaching. It can in fact be much, much more challenging. To do it well, you need a strong personality and strong moral compass. Nor are these jobs necessarily easy to get; believe me, I've tried!
On the other hand, it's ludicrous to imagine that to teach high school is to live in the "shadow" of the university. This false sense of superiority -- which can fester into spite and bitterness -- is why the best high schools are often reluctant to hire former academics. These are different jobs with different challenges and different rewards.
I can't imagine hanging out in the shadow of the university in high school teaching, publishing, or library science like some Dickensian urchin peering through a window on a feast. Better, I think, to break free and move on with your life.
Whether you're a graduate, adjuncting, on the tenure-track, or tenured, please do us all, and especially your students, a big favor and take your own advice. To continue the thought of the last poster, I doubt that many schools could imagine you in their classrooms either, and I bet that your attitude would or does make you a pretty unpleasant teacher at the university level too. Speaking of Dickensian characters, I'm thinking more Wackford Squeers than Oliver Twist.
Anon 11:38, you are quite right. The job itself isn't easy, and if I gave that impression, let me correct it. As you observed, it takes a ton of energy, personality, and emotional commitment. But for me, at least, the lifestyle as a whole is less anxiety producing.
Anon 10:57, if that's how you feel, then of course it wouldn't be the right thing for you. But my whole point was that this little urchin has skipped off down the road and is much happier.
High school teaching jobs seem like they're harder to get than VAPs, if not TT jobs. I've been applying to both and never hear anything at all from the high schools, though I have had a shit ton of VAP interviews.
12:25, I am curious about your experience with high schools. Have you used Carney, Sandoe? And do you market yourself as someone who would love to work with younger students and to explain Latin grammar day in and day out? In my experience, that is what high schools want to hear, and they are fairly receptive when they do. Of course, it depends on what kind of high schools you are applying to, where in the country you are from, where your degrees are from, etc. I just had one interview with a high school, where I was asked about my undergrad institution (scarily conservative for this interviewer), something along the lines of, do you know that our boarding school intentionally cultivates a very liberal culture. I was touched by the interviewers honesty and simplicity, but this experience also made it clear to me that issues of fit are even more important when you're talking about an elite high school. For public schools, I think it's much more important that you be present and persistent (there are ways around the certification issue for those willing to deal with them). If you're willing to go that route, I definitely think that you can find a high school job, if you are willing to apply broadly enough as sell yourself as someone who will be happy teaching Ecce Romani, which can of course be rewarding and also allow you more time to do the things that matter to you (which could obviously include research on the weekends).
I should try Carney, Sandoe then? Are there really that many boarding schools? The very idea of a boarding school kind of freaks me out, but then again I've never had any experience of one.
I have just been applying to stuff I see listed on the website of the American Classical League. But I don't bother with a great deal of it, since I am not comfortable working at a religious institution.
Oh, ffs, 3:00 5/22. There are these things called "non-academic jobs" which I suspect will keep you from starving.
You really haven't poked your head outside lately, have you? There are no jobs, especially not for a humanities PhD.
Yep, you boomers are holding on to non-academic jobs for dear life as well because you obviously didn't suck out enough marrow from society during the last thirty years. WW II vets - greatest generation. Boomers - never has a generation in human history acquired as much wealth and squandered it just as quickly. Nice legacy. Thanks for the nuclear crater you've left us.
Sincerely,
Gen X and Y
Yup, I hope you enjoyed your 2nd homes and mid-life convertibles/dalliances.
http://business-news.thestreet.com/thestreet/story/millennials-wont-be-debt-free-until-they-die/11933126
You really haven't poked your head outside lately, have you? There are no jobs, especially not for a humanities PhD.
Yes, heaven forfend that someone with a humanities PhD might have to lower hirself to apply to an hourly job at minimum wage with no benefits. Kind of like the one I had at this time last year.
Well, no one should have to lack benefits, and no one should have to work at the current minimum wage. Our society is fucked up beyond belief in that regard.
And there aren't many opportunities out there at minimum wage, either.
"Yes, heaven forfend that someone with a humanities PhD might have to lower hirself to apply to an hourly job at minimum wage with no benefits. Kind of like the one I had at this time last year."
Sure, I'm wiling to do this to survive, especially for the short-term if it doesn't compromise my chances for a better long-term future. Am I happy to eat dog food and live like an illegal just because someone else thinks this normal in the world's richest country? Nope.
APA Blog : Message about 2013-2014 Placement Service << American Philological Association News
I am sorry to announce that the AIA has terminated its participation in the Joint AIA–APA Placement Service. This unfortunate decision dissolves a partnership that has lasted for more than three decades. We at APA discouraged this step because we believe it will put an additional burden on many candidates and institutions both at the joint annual meeting and throughout the hiring process. In moving ahead, we are determined to continue to offer an excellent Placement Service to our registrants, even as we work on upgrading what has been offered in the past.
In 2011 the APA independently commissioned the creation of an online system to handle Placement Service registration, the immediate posting of new position listings on a private web site, and the scheduling of interviews at the annual meeting. During the current academic year, Information Architect Sam Huskey and his colleague Alex Ward made several improvements to this System, including programming that issued an e-mail notification to registered candidates on the day following the posting of a new position. Sam and Alex are now at work on further improvements for 2013-14, particularly some steps to make the registration process easier for both candidates and institutions.
AIA Officers stated that one of the goals for their separate system is to make candidates aware of jobs, particularly those outside of academia, whose hiring cycle is not connected to interviews at the annual meeting. We do not feel that it was necessary to create a separate system to achieve this goal, which, in any case, we share: Our current ability to issue notices about new position listings overnight makes the System a good vehicle throughout the calendar year for the transmission of information about new jobs.
While the Placement Committee will no longer be a joint committee with AIA, APA will ensure that the Committee’s membership includes archaeologists and will make every effort to attract job listings to the Service that reflect the full range of opportunities for students of classical studies today, from employers seeking scholars of language, literature, and material culture (and combinations of those areas) for academic positions as well as suitable candidates for nonacademic employment. As many of you know, nonacademic employment was the subject of the Joint Placement Committee’s panel at the recent Seattle meeting, and we will soon be posting audio files of the presentations at that session on the APA web site.
Last month the Committee issued its usual questionnaire to candidates registered for the Service in 2012-2013. In addition, it is about to send a new survey instrument to institutions that purchased comprehensive service (i.e., conducted interviews at the annual meeting as well as posting a job) in both the current and previous academic year. Our goal in both cases is obtain further information as to how we might improve the Placement Service. I welcome comments on the Service from members at any time, particularly from those who may not receive either of the surveys described above. Do let us hear your views.
John F. Miller
Vice President for Professional Matters
jfm4j@virginia.edu
Here's an idea for the APA: hire Carney Sandoe to run the Placement Service. Or failing that, adopt a Carney-Sandoe-esque model. I don't discount the good-faith efforts to improve the Placement Service in recent years, but I've found Carney Sandoe more professional, more efficient and more humane. Why, you ask?
1) The service is free for job seekers; institutions (I think) either pay a percentage of the starting salary after making a successful hire or pay an annual subscription fee.
2) Each applicant is assigned a Placement Counselor and a Placement Associate, who keep up to date on your search, answer questions about specific schools and in some cases seem to act as agents.
3) The essential materials of a dossier (cv, transcripts, letters of reference) are uploaded to the CS&A website; whenever a job is listed, your "Placement Team" sends your dossier for you.
4) Openings are listed chronologically, with the latest ones first (amazing!), in a standardized format and updated with important information like whether the position has been filled. After a time, out-of-date listings are removed.
5) But the actual list of openings is often irrelevant, because schools who subscribe to the service can browse through dossiers (apparently) whenever they like. It is not unheard of to get a call out of the blue from a school looking to fill a position that is not advertised anywhere.
The vagaries and terrible economic reality of job searches in higher education account for some of the differences between these two services, of course. But if the APA actually cares about the experience of the applicants who being "placed", it will take a hard look at the CS&A model, which is clearly superior, in my mind.
Hey guys, they just opened up a Philosophy factory here in Newburn, and I hear they need entry-level technicians. Just passing the word.
Higher Ed already has something similar to the Carney Sandoe model for independent schools. In fact, it is superior to CS, is already up and running, fairly inexpensive, and much more efficient:
https://academicjobsonline.org/ajo
Almost all Math and Physics hiring is done this way, and Classics would be wise to follow. One problem, I think, is that the APA needs the revenue from the Placement Service.
Does anybody know what the new AIA service will look like? Will we non-archaeologists be able to use it?
Am I the only one who suspects that this move from the AIA is an intentional one, to distance itself from an organization that it sees as out of touch, out of date, and generally inefficient? Archaeology as a field is much bigger than Classics, and so stepping away from the APA makes a kind of sense as the field of archaeology seeks to survive and even thrive even as many other academic disciplines are fading off into the past. I don't think they'd prevent APA types from joining (isn't the new service supposed to be free?), but there probably won't be many jobs that aren't primarily material culture in their focus. I suspect that the APA will still have something of a monopoly on "generalist" positions, and some of the archy people seem intent on stealing those from the "more appropriate" candidates on the APA side of the aisle. So I'd expect the two new services to operate in parallel, with lots of candidates signed up for both. But the Placement Service monopoly is now over, and some people will probably not think that's such a horrible change.
Yes, AcademicJobsOnline is very neat, very efficient; I think I used it a couple times last year. I imagine they are competing with Interfolio's By Committee service, although these two are not exactly equivalent. Both are leaps and bounds ahead of what the APA is doing, and that's to be expected, for the same reason that the rest of this process is sometimes (often?) a total shit show: we are classicists, not HR or web development professionals.
I disagree slightly about the comparison to CS&A, however, because, in addition advertising openings and collecting materials, CS&A provides advocacy and counseling. They will seek out opportunities on your behalf and send your materials for you. They have a stake in you getting a job; that's how they get paid. I admit that a set of incentives and economies rather unique to independent schools makes such a model possible. But it raises for me a philosophical question about the word "Placement". Has this always been a euphemism for e.g. "Meat Market" ? I.e. has it always a service primarily for committees, whether to connect them with appropriate candidates or to give a desirable veneer of fairness and openness to a decision more or less made in advance? Or is there some original sense in which the service has a responsibility to serve applicants, to strive to find the right position for each qualified applicant? I'm asking honestly.
I can only imagine that the whole "job market" experience has gotten better and better over the years. Yes, it is a shit-show still, but I'm thinking that 20, 30, 40 years ago it was far, far worse. Especially for women.
So, no, I can't imagine that by "Placement Service" there was ever the notion that they had some sort of duty to the applicants. It's a coordination center, that is it. But what do I know, I'm unemployed.
Would anyone like to buy my arm? It is made of delicious meat.
http://www.quickmeme.com/Old-Economy-Steven/?upcoming
Enjoy.
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