This site can't take over anything. It can't arrange interviews.
More importantly, it can't protect candidates from abuse by search committees.
One of the reasons that the Placement Service seems so clunky to the uninformed among this group is that certain procedures have to be followed in order to protect everyone. Another is that so many departments are clueless about running searches that it makes the APA's job that much harder. The APA office can only be as good as its constituents, and that group includes people who seem only want to attack everything and everyone.
Instead, here's a challenge: how about someone say something nice about some department?
I'm concerned that the economy will hurt candidates more if they need to go on the spring temp market. More jobs have been canceled than usual, but in general most of these t-t positions are needed to fill teaching needs. But many schools asked for temp lines in the spring may make Classics cut course offerings or turn to adjuncts even more.
One of the reasons that the Placement Service seems so clunky to the uninformed among this group is that certain procedures have to be followed in order to protect everyone. Another is that so many departments are clueless about running searches that it makes the APA's job that much harder. The APA office can only be as good as its constituents, and that group includes people who seem only want to attack everything and everyone.
Agreed, but there are still shortcomings that the Placement Service can fix. Such as more up-to-date technology (a bulletin board for jobs is often suggested), and putting a little teeth into their regulations for their "constituents."
Instead, here's a challenge: how about someone say something nice about some department?
OK. I was a temp in the department currently taking a beating in the next thread down a few years back, and thought it was a great place to be a temp. Good salary, students, benefits, some great colleagues.
Instead, here's a challenge: how about someone say something nice about some department?
I already did on another thread, but I'll do it again. McMaster is doing a great job of keeping people informed. They have shown it isn't so hard to conduct a well-run search.
For the record, I also think that Stanford is a great department, even though their students keep drinking all of my milkshakes.
Since there was some overawed talk about some candidates receiving gazillions of interviews I thought I should point out that some really successful candidates don't get lots of interviews because they don't apply for lots of jobs. That's why Mr/Ms 20+ interviews may not have gotten such an amazing job, because they were beaten by Mr/Ms Evenmoresupersmartypants from Princekley who was so uberconfident they only applied to about ten places. Not that that brings me much comfort.
That's why Mr/Ms 20+ interviews may not have gotten such an amazing job, because they were beaten by Mr/Ms Evenmoresupersmartypants from Princekley who was so uberconfident they only applied to about ten places.
Darn it. I hate to beat this equine corpse, but let me re-iterate. We Princeford people don't apply to jobs, jobs apply to us. Sending in applications would be terribly gauche. Like ringing the doorbell at the golf-club. If you have ask for admittance you don't belong.
I have a crush on Tiger Tree. I would buy you a drink at the APA to thank you for taking the time to write posts that amuse me so, but alas you believe in maintaining appropriate professional standards of anonymity. Perhaps if the Placement Service kindly circulates a list of everyone on the job market again this year I will be able to work out who you are.
I suggest we gather at the Cambridge/Oxford party where we can partake of their generosity and swap cat food recipes. Any suggestions as to how to discreetly identify ourselves?
Anon 10:00 pm: Not to doubt those who last month said that things have changed at Canadian universities... but did any non-Canadians get interviews at McMaster?
I have a crush on Tiger Tree. I would buy you a drink at the APA to thank you for taking the time to write posts that amuse me so, but alas you believe in maintaining appropriate professional standards of anonymity.
And this year's Poldy* Award goes to...Tiger Tree!
*for newbies, Poldy was a much-beloved member of FV last year and I think is still around here somewhere. Unless P is now TT?
As a member of a SC this year, I thought readers of this wiki might find the recent post on "pre-interviewing" at TenuredRadical's blog useful: http://tenured-radical.blogspot.com/ One of the best points she makes, imho, is to do your homework on the departments with which you will be interviewing.
With the (welcome) visible participation of SC members here, I think it's safe to say that FV has just about knocked off what little usefulness the APA Placement Service had. I agree some things are better the old way, but I prefer to hear about other things like the Pony Express, not live them.
I think it's safe to say that FV has just about knocked off what little usefulness the APA Placement Service had.
I agree, but I dunno how many powers-that-be do...I had a school call me to notify me of an interview last week, and the SC member who called told me how impressive s/he found the Placement Service. We've still got a long way to go, baby.
/Besides, who else would schedule me for interviews at 8 am and 8 pm on the same day?
Does anyone have a sense of what direction the open rank searches are leaning in, senior or junior? I'm interested in Roman hist. / Latin lit. I remember we had one a couple of years back and it was genuinely open, but I've heard that's not always the case.
I've always been under the assumption that open searches favor senior scholars, assuming a level playing field. Searches are presumably after "the best candidate" so this makes sense. There might be additional undercurrents, like cost and senior scholars afraid of a senior newbie rocking the boat, but I would say a search always goes for a senior scholar of any note.
So, when I was on the market mumblemumble years ago, I thought that it was pretty dang diddley stressful.
I couldn't imagine a way to make it more stressful, save if the application letters should have to be written in the style of the Hellenistic epigrammatists, replete with hidden acrostics (H-I-R-E-x-M-E). Or maybe Martial-style distichs. Or maybe a Periclean funeral oration (the hard one). Or perhaps something simple, like a fragmentary chorus of Aiskhylos.
Or perhaps interviews should be conducted in swimming pools. Or maybe all the interviewers should be dressed as Beelzebub. Maybe the candidate should be asked to explain her diss via interpretive dance. In two minutes, or less. This might at least make it easier when someone asks you to "tell us about your dissertation" and then you can't remember what Chapter Two was about or whether, God forbid, perhaps you forgot Chapter Two altogether and went straight to Chapter Three. Darnit. So that's how I ended up with seventeen chapters... I skipped the even ones.
It's stressful! It's horrible! It's *supposed to be*. It's important. It's your job, but it's also your life.
But mainly, it's your job. Remember this.
Anyway, I thought it couldn't be more stressful than it was those mumblemumble years back.
And then I found this place.
Dammit. You guys went and found a way to make one of the least enjoyable aspects of an altogether enjoyable profession (and I say this to encourage you: I have a job, and a t-t one, and I am happier than a pig in the proverbial) just *that much worse*.
Let me tell you what I know.
I have been through two job searches on the ugly end of the stick. I was once an inside candidate. I got the job. And it was a real bloody search. No nudges, no winks, no "say no more, say no more"s. 14 or so other interviewees, and 3 other campus visitors. Nothing was assured, nothing promised, nothing hinted at. I was astounded and humbled by my colleague's ethics and utter professionalism. I wanted the nudges. I wanted the winks. What I got was another terrifying, white-knuckled, and totally professional search. Interview at the APA. Dinner as a "visitor" back home. Talk in the department. Totally, excruciatingly, above the board.
And I want to say honestly that I think this is the norm rather than the exception.
Now, I am in a department that has done searches.
Whether or not we are doing one this year is beside the point. I am not on a SC this year. But I've read these posts, many of which very unfairly (and—and I know this—inaccurately) impugn some very fine departments, and scholars, and professionals, and people. I don't know who has applied where, but I take it that at least some of you are talking some serious trash about departments you'd hope to join. If you really think we are so despicably unethical, why would you want to work with us?
Stop it. Please. It does not become you. Those of us with permanent positions don't have it in for you. We remember, and quake. We think of that sweaty hotel suite, and smell sulfer. We agonize. We argue. We read files a thousand times over and fill notebooks with notes the likes of which we have not seen since orals days. We want you all to find the right jobs, stable jobs, and jobs that make you happy and let you use profitably the skills you've worked so freaking hard to acquire.
We freaking remember. Ok?
We are doing our best. The process isn't a perfect one. It's what we have. The ftf interviews are helpful because (1) it is really useful to see how a person actually reacts to living people—you aren't hiring a barrista: this person may be the person you'll grow old with. And—and listen up—(2) a lot of very good candidates shoot themselves square in the foot in a ftf interview. Bam. Bam bam bam. Some use a .45; others prefer the shotgun effect.
How to have a good interview? (oh, look, I'm giving away trade secrets)
Find the room early, but please don't knock until about 30 seconds after your time. If a hotel has two towers, make sure you know the right one.
Pee first. Don't be hungover, and don't notice it if we are.
Don't dress too funkily, but be yourself. We aren't hiring a Microsoft exec. We want a colleague, and only a few of us wear ties daily, so don't overdo it. Then again, this is not the time to advertise your fetishes. Look clean and ready to talk. Be excited about your work.
Have a short answer for your diss (or present project); it should take about two minutes. Then have a longer one; it should take five minutes. Give this only if asked to expand (you probably will be). You have only maybe 40 to 45 minutes, tops. We've read your file; we want to hear you talk about your work. If someone asks you a specific question, do your best. It's ok to take a second or two to clear your thoughts.
When you are done, stop talking. We are unlikely to stop you, unless you ramble.
Don't cover your mouth when you speak. Don't wring your hands. Don't start giving the "devil hand" and involuntarily head-banging every time someone says something interesting. If you have these ticks, work on them now.
Be prepared to talk about your next projects, but don't list six, because we won't believe you. List two or maybe three. Be specific. If you can only be specific about one, then only discuss one—but have one.
If you've claimed you can teach X, Y, or Zed, then know what bloody texts you will use. Don't say you want to teach intermediate Greek with a text that has no commentary. Know what the dept uses to teach intro courses (have notes, review them right before you go in): if you'd use something else or have only taught from something else, be up front about it, but don't go all hog diggley about criticizing a dept's choices. Chances are we are using what works for us. We are probably open to change, but we aren't looking for a revolutionary. We are looking for a compatriot.
Have a class—if it's a dept with a grad program, a seminar—you'd like to teach that IS NOT on the topic of your diss. We want to see what you have in mind to do NEXT. "Of course I'd love to teach a seminar on [the topic of my diss], but I am really looking forward to one on [another topic], which feeds into one of my next projects..."
Don't sell "Ancient Gay Sex Rawks!" to a conservative school, and don't sell "Augustus: Like Bush, but Better!" to a liberal one. But do have one or two focused "in translation" classes you might offer to undergrads. It's fine for you to shift these classes according to the school. We know you do. We want flexibility.
At some point, we will likely ask you if you have any questions. This is not the time to say "which Dakota is this, anyway?" or "how much do I get paid?" or "are your students smart?" or "is your library any good?" (No: it sucks, which is why none of us publish anyway: we hate books) It's fine to say "I don't think so—your departmental website is exceedingly informative, and I've done a lot of research into the area as a whole. You have a fantastic department, and I am very excited about this position." In short, don't ask questions that are not your business, or that you could have answered online.
Even if they don't have a fantastic dept, and even if you aren't very excited, you say this. You don't know how things will play out. As another poster said, it's a marathon.
It is also ok to say "hmmmm. I don't know. I'm still working on that aspect... thank you" if asked about something about your research you'd not considered. It's not going to sink you.
Trust me. I was full metal stupid at times in the interview that got me my job. Don't worry about that. Don't worry about one bad answer.
Relax. Do your homework. Don't freak yourself out. And please please please stop thinking that SCs are behaving unethically just because of the famae that uolent. I'm not saying it doesn't happen: only that it doesn't happen as much as people want to think it does. And that does no credit to the field we all (I hope) love.
And finally. I hope you all get interviews. Lots of them. But you only need one job. You can only take one job. At times, even that one job is going to seem like three or four.
And even then, guys, it's just a job. It's just a way of paying the bills. It's not you. It's a job, and you'll get one.
I fear this has come off wrong. If so, apologies up front. I really wish you all the best. I really do remember. And I'm only telling you what I tell all of my PhD students. And almost all of them have jobs, and most are t-t.
In boca al' lupo, Quirites! (oooh, how's that for a bastardization?)
I'm actually not sure if it's just a job. With all the professionalization that is around in American academia it's easy to feel that way; but I like to think that academia is a job on a different scale than being a mid-level bank executive. Academia is a way of life, with its own art of living; and I think the appeal of our profession rests on that (and not on the comparatively secure jobs).
So, yes, I hope our jobs do pay the bill, but we won't be good at them if we continue to act like, live like, dress like, and think like, mid-level bank execs: what they want to get out of their jobs is that it pays the bills; what we want to get out of ours is something else that each one of us has to find out for themselves.
I endorse the suggestion that interviewees should really do their homework on the Departments, but don't go so far into memorizing stuff that you seem like a stalker--like in the famous William Shatner SNL skit where a sci-fi conference attendee knows that a horse on his farm had had a foal (is that the right word?) before he does. Knowing what book they use is good; memorizing their numbering system can seem a little freaky.
Some people are getting interviews this week; some people aren't, or aren't getting the ones they want or need, yet. So here are three songs about hanging tough, each with a taste of the lyrics:
Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots Pt. 1 The Flaming Lips http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq-W-4Izjwc
Oh Yoshimi, they don't believe me but you won't let those robots eat me Yoshimi, they don't believe me but you won't let those robots defeat me
Those evil-natured robots they're programmed to destroy us she's gotta be strong to fight them so she's taking lots of vitamins
Bruce Springsteen - Dream Baby Dream http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4EzcBL1yDY
lyrics: http://www.springsteenlyrics.com/lyrics/d/dreambabydream.php Keep the fire burning_ We gotta keep the light burning_ Come on, we gotta keep the light burning_ Come on, you gotta keep the fire burning_ Come on and dream baby dream__ Come on and dream baby dream_ Come on and dream baby dream_ Come on and dream baby dream_ Come on darling and dry your eyes_ Come on baby and dry your eyes_ Come on darling and dry your eyes_ Come on baby and dry your eyes_ Come on darling and dry your eyes_ Come on, you gotta keep on dreaming
Dont Give Up - Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7aaynDhaVc
lyrics http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/peter+gabriel/dont+give+up_20107494.html Don't give up 'cause you have friends Don't give up You're not beaten yet Don't give up I know you can make it good
" I endorse the suggestion that interviewees should really do their homework on the Departments, but don't go so far into memorizing stuff that you seem like a stalker"
* As a member of several SCs over the last few years, I agree. I never expected interviewees to be familiar with my work; in fact, it's weird and vaguely off-putting if they seem too eager to have memorized things I've written. My point, though, isn't just that moderation is the key - it's the likelihood that you'll start to mix people up, especially if you have a number of interviews. Nothing would be worse than telling Prof. x that you loved her book, only to find that it was Prof. y who wrote it. The potential to screw things up is too great. Your time is better spent practicing your own polished answers to (1) What your diss is on, (2) what classes you want to teach, (3) what books you would use to do that. (2) is huge, because a lot of people only think of a greek or latin class, when SCs are always looking for a cool new idea for a course taught in translation.
Now this is just bloody ridiculous. Yes, Harvard's endowment has taken a hit, but does it really make a difference if you endowment goes from 50 billion to 30 billion? Is this just a symbolic gesture? State schools I can understand, private schools with huge endowments, I do not.
Granted the Harvard endowment is enormous, but they have lost 22% and predict further losses coming up. Also note that Harvard relies on its endowment for about 35% of its operating budget (viz. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/04/business/04harvard.php) so even if you dislike Harvard, you have to appreciate why they're being cautious. Also note that Harvard is a huge employer in Massachusetts, so their cautionary reaction is prudent.
Harvard is way more dependent on and aggressive with its endowment than other schools. The big state univ where I teach lost only 7% of its endowment. My SLAC undergrad alma mater is projected to lose 20% by the end of the fiscal year. Compare that to Harvard's 30%.
In 1990 Harvard had an endowment of less than 5 billion. For nearly two decades their investments averaged better than 15% returns. I suspect that from an objective medium or long-term viewpoint their aggressive strategy will have proved perfectly "prudent".
I am still in the process of filling out the numbers for a couple of past years, and am embarking on more. I ran across a thoroughly depressing article and feel compelled to share. Caveat lector!
We have wiki vandalism now? Someone put "1 (possibly mythical)" next to 11 interviews on the counter.
Well, if you really have 11 interview and you wrote that it's not vandalism. It's just dumb.
Um, a joke? I believe someone thought this was appropriate given that in another thread, someone claims to have 11 interviews though did not post it to the wiki. If you want to slog through it, it has been decided that the person is either lying or simply refuses to post to the wiki. The solution? Someone marked it but then noted that the person could be lying. This is not vandalism.
Please disregard the 10:19 post. I clicked publish too soon.
Um, a joke?
I've got a bad feeling about this.™
We already have to sift through all this crap in the Job Search Updates thread. Exporting it to the wiki does not sound good to me at all.
An unrelated question: I see that there are 51 self-identified job seekers on the wiki. Does anyone have a rough idea of what percentage of the candidate pool that represents?
I see that there are 51 self-identified job seekers on the wiki. Does anyone have a rough idea of what percentage of the candidate pool that represents?
Judging from past statistics this is only about 1/6 of the total applicants. Many of these, however, are only dabbling in the market. It would be interesting to figure out what sort of applicants actually use the wiki. Presumably mostly ABDs and recent grads - not the senior and established folks. Maybe we should put another wiki counter up asking for ID info?
I'm guessing that the princeford villain is a Roman historian with AHA interviews added to the tally. Along with Latinists, they seem to be in the best shape this year.
Along with Latinists, they seem to be in the best shape this year.
Isn't that always the case? Years ago JJ O'Donnell compiled some statistics about the job market. Latinists and Roman historians were generally better off then as now. (link)(link)
Yes, as someone pointed out earlier, this is almost always the case, but I think it's especially bad this year. In the past, a Latinist could get 20 interviews while a Hellenist got 14 - not that big of a deal. This year, I think it's especially bimodal. All the Hellenists I know have less than five interviews this year while the Latinists are approaching or surpassing ten.
Oh, going back to what someone posted earlier, are the tallies only for jobs advertised by the APA? There is often a gray area with history and Late Antique jobs that often are but sometimes not also posted by the APA.
Oh, going back to what someone posted earlier, are the tallies only for jobs advertised by the APA? There is often a gray area with history and Late Antique jobs that often are but sometimes not also posted by the APA.
No, I also included my AHA and phone interviews arranged through the AHA service.
I am happy to hear that some people are getting 10 interviews or more, even if I am not. I was thinking that seven was the high point and was even more freaked out about this year's market than I needed to be. So those Latinists ought to go ahead and post, it will help everybody, even if some of us think they are various iterations of Blane and Steff.
To encourage those with high numbers of interviews to post, I deleted the possibly mythical comment next to 11 interviews. Really, this is a group effort. The more knowledge we have, the better we can deal with reality
I do think that the person boasting about their 11 interviews deserves the public opprobrium s/he, if real, has achieved here. Clearly it had no effect on them, but it shouldn't adversely affect others.
So are the people with 5+ interviews ABD, grads who have defended, visiting professors/lecturers holding 1-to-3-year positions, or tenure-track professors? Does anyone with 2+ years of teaching experience beyond grad school have 5+ interviews?
My guess is that search committees are doing what they always do, and preferring the newest shiny trinket to emerge on the scene over people who actually have track records.
Did someone actually post that they have 11 interviews or is that just a diligent famae reader updating the counter? If someone other than the job hunter in question has posted it, can we please remove it in its entirety? It is my suspicion that this person has not been using the counter on the wiki because they have not been able to work out the password. Perhaps they are real (though if they can't work out the password the 11 interviews are improbable), but they might also just be this year's variant of wiki vandal, wrecking havoc and sowing seeds of inferiority complexes in young academic minds. There is nothing that can be done if they want be disruptive on famae volent, but let's not assist in spreading it to the wiki.
Though I am amused at what I take to be an example of the general community's inclination to helpfulness and wiki diligence.
"My guess is that search committees are doing what they always do, and preferring the newest shiny trinket to emerge on the scene over people who actually have track records."
This has to be one of the most frustrating aspects of the search. All the SC members will come on here with their sage advice about what a crapshoot it all is and how many qualified candidates do not land a TT job their first year out. Yet they will turn around and salivate over ABDs as if there must be something wrong with those in a VAP. It reminds me of how professional sports leagues get burned year after year going after "upside" rather than a proven track record (sorry for the sports analogy).
Does anyone with 2+ years of teaching experience beyond grad school have 5+ interviews?
I (Hellenist) had 7 interviews from a VAP in my 4th year beyond grad school. A lot of it just depends on the market that year and your publication record by then. They really expect you to have either 3-5 articles out (not forthcoming or under review) or a book under consideration or contract by that point. Three years seems to be the shelf life for lots of interviews otherwise.
The last nine t-t hires in the different fields of ancient studies at my Ph.D. institution have been people who were already in a temporary or a t-t position. I think it's been about a decade since someone was hired straight out of grad school.
I (Hellenist) had 7 interviews from a VAP in my 4th year beyond grad school. A lot of it just depends on the market that year and your publication record by then. They really expect you to have either 3-5 articles out (not forthcoming or under review) or a book under consideration or contract by that point. Three years seems to be the shelf life for lots of interviews otherwise.
Also a Hellenist/Greek historian; had 14 interviews my 4th year out. It was largely because it was a very good year for Greek history, and realistically I didn't have a shot at most of the jobs I interviewed for, who were looking for adv. asst./assoc. profs. Except for that hiccup, my interview rate has consistently been 5-7 at the APA, but I have been publishing at the rate of 1-2 articles a year, and finishing off a book manuscript. I have also been developing new courses and extending my teaching experience to different types of courses every chance I get.
I agree with your assessment of the situation; after a few years of VAPing, you had better be showing something on the pubs front - although WHEN they expect you to do that given extra teaching, moving around, and job hunting, who knows?
For every post from a helpful senior scholar, we get one of these. I have no doubts that half the senior scholars out there would be TT-less if they hit the market now instead of 1972. There are probably half the jobs with double the applicants. I know so many friends who got TT jobs that were barely invited to the APA (usually much pleading from advisors and such was involved). This tells me that many people get shut out of interviews that could have exceled at a campus invite given the chance. Yet they never made it out of the gate. Can you say crapshoot?
I at least appreciated Anon 8:08's comments on his experience on a search committee. I mean it sounds similar to what I have seen (as a grad student on committees). Thanks.
For those who've been in the field for decades, do bad economies result in an uptick of senior scholars moving around? There seem to be an awful lot of seniors-only searches going on, whether explicit or implicit. I'm guessing that programs, especially top ones, want as close to a sure thing as possible and are willing to offer enough to lure seniors?
Departments have no control over whether they get to hire senior: they always ask for permission to do so, and it's the administration that says yes or no. It is much harder to pry senior searches out of an administration during tough economic times, because senior faculty are much more expensive. The senior searches going this year are miracles, not consequences of the bad economy.
In general, when a department gets an open search, it usually hires senior, because open searches are rare. Most open searches this year will probably end up with a senior person, as happens most years. It won't have anything to do with the economy.
My R1 Dept has had two searches in the past decade in which we could have hired with tenure but decided to hire a junior person. Both times we were pretty specific about field, so that cut the pool of senior people down, and then compared to that pool we liked the younger people better.
In that same Dept, I used to think we would never hire a person without PhD in hand, since we had not done so for a couple of decades, then we did it twice, although both times for people who who absolutely certain to defend before taking up the position.
I think the tendency is for open searches to end up with offers to senior people.
Also, the less attractive the searching institution, the less attractive the pool of senior people will be: all eligible junior people on the market will have applied for the position, but only those senior faculty will have done so for whom the position would be better than a lateral move. The less elite / wealthy / blessed with location / able to provide spousal employment, etc., an institution is, the harder it will be to get good senior candidates.
Obviously, this can be to the advantage of junior candidates.
Yes, but the more elite the program, the bigger the egos that already reside in the department. I've been a part of searches that pass over the obviously superior candidate thanks to these egos' fears of getting outshined. Compromise candidates are fairly common in these scenarios, and they are usually junior.
On the 12th day of Christmas, my true love gave to me 12 new job postings 11 APA interviews 10 schools for scapegoats 9 whiners whining 8 snail-mail rejections 7 angry archeologists 6 jobs for 100 historians 5 cancelled jobs!!!!! 4 VAPs 3 TTs 2 dream-jobs lost ...and an early offer for me!!!
Merry Christmas everybody! Right, I'm off to make tray-baked free range doormouse in a garum reduction sauce for my family. Thus proving the worth of my classical education without breaking the bank. Thanks to the cat.
I find it ironic that the APA decided to start the personal email service only now that the FV wiki has successfully collected almost all the information. Unless word of mouth about FV hasn't reached everyone on the market, there aren't too many people who don't already know where they are interviewing. The Placement Service takes a step forward, and proves how obsolete it is.
Even without FV, how often does one get an interview that they weren't contacted about before the APA? I guess the Placement Service wants to show that they're working hard for us, but wouldn't working smarter and ahead of the curve impress us a whole lot more?
I don't know about the rest of you, but last year, and the year before that (yes, it's been a crap few years) all of the schools that had decided to interview me let me know ahead of time.
Will the RP email tell us the actual interview schedule, or just who has requested interviews with us? If the former, that is cool. If the latter, it's kind of a waste.
My favorite part is that after all the "personal" emails are sent out, a general one will be sent out again to passively let those without interviews know that the process is finished and they've been shut out. The APA Placement Service - a compassionate service.
"Even without FV, how often does one get an interview that they weren't contacted about before the APA?"
This question can be answered two ways.
1. When I was on the market some years back, I arrived at the APA to find a slip in my envelope from a school that had not bothered to contact me before the meeting; when I queried why they hadn't, the answer was, well, would it have really mattered? In fact, I ended up being flown out for a visit and in the end was offered the job, which I declined because of another offer that year.
2. Twice at the APA, "things have happened," meaning I was contacted in my hotel to come for an unscheduled interview; this means that someone who knew me spoke favorably to a committee member who had declined to interview me, but whose committee was not having a very successful search that far into the meeting. This happened, as I said, twice; one time each year I was on the market. Neither interview led anywhere, and in fact as soon as I left the room of one of the schools it was clear that they would forget having met me within 10 minutes (I was evidently the 18th, or maybe it was 21st, person they'd spoken to!).
So, none of this is to give false hope to candidates, but these things *do* happen. Don't count on it...but be prepared to be gracious and accept an interview if you get one this way, and don't under any circumstances gripe that you aren't prepped for it.
I think you're in for disappointment then. This is the format, straight from the source.
Hello (your name)
Your candidate ID number is CXXX The following schools will interview you at the convention:
School A School B School C
See you in January!
Quit your whining! At least you have three interviews. And you scored with School B, which is an awesome place. School A, however, not so much...
And in case you didn't notice, Candidate #130, you just blew your cover. I'm scoping badge numbers the whole time until I figure out who you are. Then I'm gonna steal one of your three yellow slips when you're not looking, you Princeford punk.
When I was on the market some years back, I arrived at the APA to find a slip in my envelope from a school that had not bothered to contact me before the meeting
Similar. Two slips, in fact, for two separate reasons. The first school either hadn't emailed me or simply ignored the fact that the email had bounced. (They sent a paper letter but I'd already told them I wouldn't be able to pick up my mail). The second school just got its act together late in the day. Thankfully I had other interview notifications, because if not I probably wouldn't have bothered with the APA and even if I'd gone I almost certainly wouldn't have prepared anything. (Which would have minimized my chances of getting the job I now have). I doubt this kind of thing happens that often, but if you want anecdotal evidence, well, there you go.
OK, serious props to the Placement Service. These emails have actually been very helpful. It is nice knowing which schools have decided to interview you before you get to the APA.
But I'm really not sure why the SCs themselves couldn't have taken a few minutes to notify us directly like everybody else. I am happy to get an interview, but not impressed with the lack of communication by certain schools (Baylor, Furman... I'm looking at you!). Computer challenged? Enjoy the frisson of surprise? Clueless?
Anyone else -- who knows for a fact they have interviews -- not receive an email from RP? I understand Rome wasn't built in a day and all, but I'm impatient, and strongly suspect that the email will bring welcome news for me.
I think I read the RP email correctly but I could have glazed over but did it say that those of us who failed to send in our availability sheets by Nov. 26 won't get slotted into emails until the APA itself? Or will we simply receive no personalized notifications?
Just thought that readers of this site might be interested in some of the recent posts by Tenured Radical on interviewing at the meetings (in her case the AHA, but it is not that different from the APA/AIA). Check it out: http://tenured-radical.blogspot.com/
The Placement Service email is helpful, but my colleagues in religion coordinate directly with the search committees, and they (gasp) actually arrange the exact times of their interviews at least a week in advance - usually more.
It baffles me that RP sits in front of her computer for several days sending pseudo-personal emails to 300+ candidates. Paste, edit, send, paste, edit, send, etc. This is fine for maybe 50-100 candidates, but this is ridiculous for 300+ people. They should talk with any admissions office about what it takes to set up a secure site for SCs and candidates to log into for up-to-date info. Unfortunately, this is like 20 years into the future when most of us will have tenure and most of the SC members will be relaxing in Florida or wherever.
Anyone who can speak on the subject of placement without frothing at the mouth should probably make a brief sales pitch to David Konstan (VP Professional Matters) or someone on the Placement Cttee (e.g., Matt Roller). If we could come up with a brief, economical plan any one of us could take the opportunity at a party to say something. (Though it'd freak me out if fifteen different people accosted me over three days saying exactly the same thing.) So far suggestions I remember on FV have included: 1) purchasing scheduling software 2) setting up a secure website for scheduling information Was there anything else constructive?
(Though it'd freak me out if fifteen different people accosted me over three days saying exactly the same thing.)
It would freak out Roller or one of his colleagues more if fifteen different people each came up and said that RP "is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life."
I have a question about interviews dress code. Do women have to wear a suit (or anything with a jacket), or would a dressy skirt and blouse/sweater work?
I have a question about interviews dress code. Do women have to wear a suit (or anything with a jacket), or would a dressy skirt and blouse/sweater work?
Wear professional but comfortable. If you don't feel comfortable in a jacket, wear a sweater. If you feel uncomfortable, you'll probably look uncomfortable. Skirts are up to you. I saw a lot in San Diego, but not so many in Chicago...
Anon 8:47, in my humble opinion you should definitely go with the pant suit. All the men and most of the other women will. Realizing that you are the least-professional looking one will make you more uncomfortable than the suit will.
Thanks, I just printed it out. I thought for my hundred bucks I would at least get a program, but maybe if I complain they'll give me one when I get there.
Finally! I've been complaining for years about wasting postage, time and energy -- and half the time the program shows up after I've left for the APA. This is good news. They are learning!
Does anyone know if Swarthmore is interviewing at the meetings for their 1-year job?
According to the RP emails, they will be handing in an interview list to the Placement Service when they get there. They are interviewing for the 1-year, but presumably not the TT since the deadline for the TT is Jan 15. People who applied to the 1-year, however, are supposedly being considered for the TT.
I looked and last year there was a trickle of notifications on Wednesday after the APA that exploded the following week. I think many SCs are still recovering from the APA and trying to start their term at the same time. Combined with the drop in searches, I don't think we'll get much info until late next week and maybe into the following week.
OK, I'll start something up - just got a rejection email from Cincinnati, which is way late because it clearly should have been sent pre-APA. But best of all, it's addressed "Dear candidate." C'mon, 99% of schools manage to address candidates by name. Not hard, ya know?
Don't forget that there seemed to be significant overlap between some high profile institutions fighting for the same candidates. There were rumors of SCs scheduling flybacks during the APA! This in turn, I believe, spurred unrelated searches to issue their own flyback invitations. I don't think it's bad when SCs have a chance to be more methodical instead of things reverting to a candidate-grab.
I've noticed that schools are already making offers for VAP positions. I've interviewed for both VAP and tenure track positions. What do I do if a VAP offer is made but I'm pretty certain that no campus invites have been issued for the tenure track positions? Is it normal for VAP offers to be made this early?
In my (limited) experience, it is normal for some VAP offers to be made early, and it is likely that the schools making early offers will give you a healthy amount of time to accept. I know also that they will sometimes let the #2-?? candidates know the scenario, too. In other words, I've found that the hiring institutions keep the VAP process pretty fair & transparent.
Is it normal for VAP offers to be made this early?
I have heard that some VAP positions are being offered early in order to secure the position with the school. The longer the position sits open, the more likely the administration is to cut it as part of budget adjustments.
I would let the school know that you are still waiting on other schools you have interviewed with. I would then contact those schools, tell them you have an offer on the table which you are willing to wait accepting and ask them if/when they will be making campus invite decisions. You may not be on the short list and then you give up a job for nothing. If they tell you that you are on the short list, then you go back to the VAP school and let them know and request extended time to make the decision.
VAP offers have been made in anthro and history, but they are on an earlier time table than classics. I believe art history (like the Irvine position) is usually on a later time table, so I'm not sure why they are so early.
I don't know about the progress of the ancient searches run through the CAA. A friend, who works in a different area of art history, has a few interviews lined up.
There were precious few Greco-Roman searches, but several mentioned "ancient" as one possible specialization or teaching area. There was SUNY New Paltz (apparently canceled), Chicago (either canceled or moving slowly), Rochester Institute of Technology (CAA interviews set-up), UCI (job offered), Wells College, New York City College of Technology, Towson University (also wanted architecture), Appalachian State, Knox College (VAP), Kennesaw State (pre-Renaissance), and a couple others.
Many, if not most, of these jobs are *not* for ancient MC, specifically, but are more generally pre-modern. Add to these the generalist positions (similar to classics generalists but, as you can image, covering a much greater time period) and it looks on paper like MC people are doing alright. On paper . . .
On the other hand, I have one overseas lotteries several times in the last two days. Apparently my spam filter can't resist the temptation any longer.
Still not word from the vast majority of searches - Feb looks to be a hectic month. What's up? Are SCs still basking in the afterglow of the inauguration?
I am starting to fidget myself into a frenzy, waiting to hear. I know objectively that it hasn't been that long, but it feels like forever since the APA/AIA--and for some reason the lack of FV chatter and news today is particularly impatient-making. I was looking forward to a flood of new information after the long weekend!
I'm not on the market, so maybe it's cold comfort me to reassure you, but...
Years back I came back from the APA; I had a major coup - a bigshot school had interviewed me there and, true to the rumors, they'd called me on Saturday night after they'd finished all their interviews to let me know that they wanted me to come to campus. Huge thrill, obviously.
Big schools can do that only because they faculty is so big that search committees can make most of the executive decisions themselves; so they meet and draw up the short list for call backs themselves.
With the smaller schools I ended up getting invited to, I had to wait maybe 3 weeks or even more to hear something. I thought that was seriously weird and a long time to wait. (I still do, but now I understand why.) When I got to the smallest of the schools that invited me, it made sense: virtually every decision the department wanted to make had to be approved by numerous administrators before any action could be taken; and that of course all depended on how quickly those administrators could get around to addressing the issue.
So...hang in there. It ain't over yet. It's not bad news that you haven't heard anything...
On the other hand, if you don't hear something by c. Feb. 1st, I'd say it's probably over at that point...
Most of the Wiki is unmarked regarding campus visits, so yeah, it's too early to panic. No, hold on, I've got it completely wrong, it's never too early to panic.
Still, what's most disheartening about the wiki is the relatively few people who have callbacks, with many of those having multiple callbacks. It sort of illustrates the problems we've talked about on here before, that there are "hot" candidates and then the rest of us.
(This is not to start that whole debate again, and it might change after the rest of notifications trickle in.)
I know someone who got the usual APA interview in January but had to wait until March to hear a flyback offer. That someone ended up getting the job, too. So never lose hope.
You make tenure sound as important if not more so than a Nobel. I hope I am mistaken as I will then have less hope for the future of Classics, if that's even possible. I would gladly take the million dollars and never look back at the classics world again. Mind you I'm not talking about the literature, culture, etc, when I say "classics world."
I know it will probably generate severe resistance from SCs, like many things on this site, but could we think about adding a "cheers and jeers" section to this blog, assuming that no individuals are named. There is something like this for all disciplines on various wikis, but it's not discipline specific and it's often not constructive. I have received some amazing rejection letters from some SCs, and they should rightfully be singled out for their professionalism and empathy. On the flipside, I've experienced some horrendous interviews/letters this year that are beyond the pale when compared even to previous years. I seriously sat in bush league interviews where SC members on their thrones are borderline hazing candidates basically asking why you are deserving of such a scarce commodity. I'm sure that many of us have happily done our jig and kissed their feet, and I don't think less of this, but this lack of professionalism should be highlighted, in my opinion.
That's true in the last 10-15 years, especially in Peace and Literature. But Mommsen won it when it mattered and meant something, in 1902.
Look, I know there only like five of us losers on this site, but we can't seriously be having this conversation. Please god let someone say something stupid and controversial to liven things up. Otherwise I'll have to fixate on my job chances, and there's not much to fixate on.
Dead Angles and Anonymous 4:36: amen to both of you! I think both your wishes could be fulfilled in one fell swoop with the implementation of Dead Angles' proposal. Shout-outs or the opposite would definitely stir the pot, and help pass the time until the rejections (or, beyond hope, the call-backs) start rolling in. I share some of Dead Angles' sentiments about one of my interviews so I am curious as to whether others had a similar experience with that school...although I'm not sure how to get around the problem of naming & shaming. I'm personally a little reluctant to do so, but would welcome it if others did. ;-) Hearing from others might embolden me...
We would just have to name the institution, department, and postitives/negatives. I think it would be fairly obvious whether the person had an axe to grind with no grounds. On the flipside, if several candidates concurred, it would hopefully serve as a deterent against such ridiculous behavior. It really is the only recourse we have against these sabre-tooth tigers who have been in their towers so long that they have no idea how normal humans should behave.
"That's true in the last 10-15 years, especially in Peace and Literature. But Mommsen won it when it mattered and meant something, in 1902."
The amazing thing to me about this comment is that I'm sure it was made by a young person under 40, yet it sounds like an old curmudgeon. Classics: spawning elitists since 1556.
The amazing thing to me about this comment is that I'm sure it was made by a young person under 40, yet it sounds like an old curmudgeon. Classics: spawning elitists since 1556.
Good to meet you, fellow snide elitist! Talk about sounding like you're over 40!
Dead Angles, I'm not on the market, no dog in this fight, but I've been around this discipline for quite a while. Please consider your suggestion _very_ carefully. A 'jeer' - a complaint about any one person's experience with a dept - might well serve to identify the jeerer to the dept, if the event was (unknown to you) a one-off. As you're suggesting, not all depts are merciful, and some are gossipy with other depts. What you thought was an anonymous complaint could be a career killer, and you would never know. Classics is a shockingly small field, compared to others that sport such tell-all blogs or sites, and not much is truly anonymous. If you have a complaint about truly unprofessional conduct, the APA's committee on professional matters might be able to help.
We understand the desire for such a thread (really, we do!). We don't want to introduce such things here, however, and will vigorously delete anything resembling what you suggest.
A "cheers only" section could be sustainable, though no doubt many SCs deserve many jeers as well (we can think of a few ourselves). If you want to open up a section on the wiki to do as you wish, then that is your right, as that is a completely "open" and non-moderated forum. Please resist doing so here, however.
Sorry to shoot it down, but we are trying our best to keep this site as respectful as possible (and greatly regret some failures up until this point). We fear your plan would inevitably lead to chaos, bitterness and many unforeseen, regrettable consequences.
Donatus - why not change your lame blog into a forum for congratulating the old silverbacks who preside over this pathetic field? you could give out stars for institutions who bullied the most - i guess you are just sharpening your own fangs for when you join their hoary ranks.
"That's true in the last 10-15 years, especially in Peace and Literature. But Mommsen won it when it mattered and meant something, in 1902."
This person is joking. Either that or they think Mommsen matters more than Medecins Sans Frontieres. 'Cos when when someone's macheted my limbs what I really want is a copy of the Romische Geschichte. That'll make a sweet prosthetic. (And yeah, sure, Arafat probably wasn't the smartest choice.)
"Donatus - why not change your lame blog into a forum for congratulating the old silverbacks who preside over this pathetic field? you could give out stars for institutions who bullied the most - i guess you are just sharpening your own fangs for when you join their hoary ranks."
Well, if Classics doesn't work out for them, somebody clearly has a future in the dramatic arts...
You are free to start your own blog - it is not hard, I hear - for whatever you would like.
Exactly. They're free, they're easy to use, and you can complain about whatever you want, for as long as you want, in complete anonymity. I bet "classicssearchcommitteesiresent.blogspot.com" is still an available URL.
You could also start your own blog about how sucky and lame Famae Volent is, and how everybody there is a bunch of lame sucky stupid stinky sellouts who suck, and how everything would be way more awesome if you were in charge of Famae Volent, and how everybody someday is going to be sorry that they were so stupid and sucky and didn't do what you wanted them to, and they'll probably cry and whimper a little, and they'll come crawling back to you to apologize and say that you were right all along and they'll beg you to forgive them but you'll be all, like, "whatevs," and that'll show them, because that's what they deserved for sucking so much, and how then the President and Jesus and Bruce Lee will give you a big shiny medal for being right all along, and how that's going to be so awesome and you can hardly wait.
I bet it'd make for some pretty darn thought-provoking reading.
Donatus - why not change your lame blog into a forum for congratulating the old silverbacks who preside over this pathetic field? you could give out stars for institutions who bullied the most - i guess you are just sharpening your own fangs for when you join their hoary ranks.
That's the ticket! We knew all along a better idea would come!
Don't worry, we will certainly throw up a prominent link to whatever rants and raves blog you carve out in the ol' blogosphere.
Now, off to nuke some popcorn and settle down for yet another marathon session of "Heathers"!
It is becoming evident that SCs and senior scholars are intent in controlling and even undermining this blog. From what I can tell, candidates are honest, overly emotional at times, but honest.
Look over some of the past comments. Two that come to mind immediately are the Cornell and FSU searches. As soon as rumors surfaced (which later proved to be true) concerning the eminent demise of their positions, we received blatantly untrue spin shortly afterwards, despite how precarious the positions actually were.
Exhibit A Hi - despite the rumors, please note that Cornell's job (Townsend postdoc) is very much a definite go. It's not affected by the hiring freeze. Please help spread the word.
Exhibit B I have no reason to say this other than a gut reaction, but I doubt FSU would go to the search-well again if it wasn't with something of a guarantee that they would get the position this time. Searches cost money, you know, and if their administration didn't think they could fund it, I doubt they would have let the act of searching go through again.
It's obvious that many of these senior scholars are uncomfortable with this blog and wiki (one even went as far as to put a counter in the wiki that reads, "I'm a current Search Committee member who is a little nervous about this whole system….. 01."). Why? Because they can't control and shit on it like pretty much everything in their world. Yes, there are a bunch of fantastic senior scholars in the field. But there are also way too many egomaniacal ones who could obviously care less about the long term future of this discipline. Yes, they are in every field, but it's especially epidemic with classics.
The classics matrix does have a lot of us. It's time for some to wake up and realize there's a entire world out there, including deans and provosts, that thinks our discipline is a relic. Why? I think anon. 9:35 has pointed it out, though I'm sure it wasn't their original intent. RIP
To Anonymous 12:02 ("You could also start your own blog about how sucky and lame Famae Volent is, and how everybody there is a bunch of lame sucky stupid stinky sellouts who suck..." blah blah blah):
I guess this is supposed to be sarcastic. It also reveals a shocking lack of imagination about the other possibilities available to us. Way to maintain the status quo there!
"But there are also way too many egomaniacal ones who could obviously care less about the long term future of this discipline."
I don't think it's a question of whether they care or not, they just don't know better. They're shitting on you just like they were shit on by their seniors. They do the things they do because they don't know anything else. Why? Because it's always been done that way and that's what will make classics thrive, the 21st century be damned.
I guess this is supposed to be sarcastic. It also reveals a shocking lack of imagination about the other possibilities available to us. Way to maintain the status quo there!
Actually, I thought my suggestion sounded a lot like what the commenter who wrote the following would say on their own blog:
Donatus - why not change your lame blog into a forum for congratulating the old silverbacks who preside over this pathetic field? you could give out stars for institutions who bullied the most - i guess you are just sharpening your own fangs for when you join their hoary ranks.
It's true that the person doesn't actually say "sucky," but you can totally tell they're thinking it.
Look, if you think somebody else's blog is lame and doesn't do what you want it to, go start your own blog that does what you want it to. Don't complain because other people don't do with their blog what you would do if it were yours; or rather, if you want to complain about that, do it on your blog. Post links to it here, and then everybody who wants a blog like your blog can go read it and comment on it. Seriously. It takes maybe five minutes to set up a blog, and it's completely free. You can mention all the names you want, totally anonymously, with virtually zero chance of being prosecuted for libel. Go. Knock yourself out.
So looking at your crystal ball and past experience, what are people's opinions as to how the classics job market will bounce back? Once the economy picks back up, will we be back up to 85 jobs or does classics lose something permanently each time the economy tanks?
"You can mention all the names you want, totally anonymously, with virtually zero chance of being prosecuted for libel."
"Please consider your suggestion _very_ carefully...As you're suggesting, not all depts are merciful, and some are gossipy with other depts. What you thought was an anonymous complaint could be a career killer, and you would never know."
What's with these thinly veiled threats? So on top of all the control that these sabre-tooths exercise over us, a little insurrection is met with threats of litigation and black-listing? Me things a tea party or two are in order. We live in the U S of #@$ A, not 18th century England. The most disheartening thing is that these sabre-tooths were probably the ones prancing around in the 60s talking of love.
Insurrection? It's hardly an insurrection. We're just attempting to point out the abhorrent behavior perpetrated by some SC members. If a department does not like it, put this sabre-tooth back in line, at the decanal level if need be. It's not slander if it's true.
Oh, for crying out loud. By "virtually zero" I meant that you can't ever fully count out the possibility of somebody getting their shorts in a twist and figuring out who you are if you drop enough hints. And that's just a matter of their developing a suspicion about your identity, not of them bringing it to court; I have never heard of an anonymous blogger, let alone commenter, being prosecuted for libel. To people not hopped up on their third cup of paranoia today, "virtually zero" means "virtually zero," not "unsettlingly real."
I'm not a "sabre-toothed silverback" or whatever monstrous thing has been created in this laboratory of cross-bred metaphors. I just think it's silly for people to complain about how someone else runs their blog when they could just start their own and run it exactly the way they want it run, and I was trying to convey the idea that it's incredibly easy and basically risk-free to set up a blog. Five minutes, and you're living in a paradise where all the rules are yours, and you can talk about whatever you want.
Now, this new blog will of course never come to be, but it won't be because of fear of reprisal. It'll be because the person who wants it is too lazy to think of an alias and fill out a couple of forms on Blogger, and would rather just berate Servius et al. for running their blog wrong.
I put a section on the wiki where we can do what FV won't allow.
I named it "Cheers and Jeers" and started it off myself. I don't have any complaints, but would be interested in hearing about others' negative experiences.
1,771 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 1771 Newer› Newest»at the speed this site is taking over the function of the placement service, soon candidates and departments will use it to arrange their meetings ;-)
I wonder if the APA actually takes notice of the remarks posted here.
Seriously, it might be the last search for several years for some departments so SCs better make this one count.
Half a million unemployed for November - worst in over three decades.
This site can't take over anything. It can't arrange interviews.
More importantly, it can't protect candidates from abuse by search committees.
One of the reasons that the Placement Service seems so clunky to the uninformed among this group is that certain procedures have to be followed in order to protect everyone. Another is that so many departments are clueless about running searches that it makes the APA's job that much harder. The APA office can only be as good as its constituents, and that group includes people who seem only want to attack everything and everyone.
Instead, here's a challenge: how about someone say something nice about some department?
Complaining is easier, isn't it?
I'm concerned that the economy will hurt candidates more if they need to go on the spring temp market. More jobs have been canceled than usual, but in general most of these t-t positions are needed to fill teaching needs. But many schools asked for temp lines in the spring may make Classics cut course offerings or turn to adjuncts even more.
One of the reasons that the Placement Service seems so clunky to the uninformed among this group is that certain procedures have to be followed in order to protect everyone. Another is that so many departments are clueless about running searches that it makes the APA's job that much harder. The APA office can only be as good as its constituents, and that group includes people who seem only want to attack everything and everyone.
Agreed, but there are still shortcomings that the Placement Service can fix. Such as more up-to-date technology (a bulletin board for jobs is often suggested), and putting a little teeth into their regulations for their "constituents."
Instead, here's a challenge: how about someone say something nice about some department?
OK. I was a temp in the department currently taking a beating in the next thread down a few years back, and thought it was a great place to be a temp. Good salary, students, benefits, some great colleagues.
Instead, here's a challenge: how about someone say something nice about some department?
I already did on another thread, but I'll do it again. McMaster is doing a great job of keeping people informed. They have shown it isn't so hard to conduct a well-run search.
For the record, I also think that Stanford is a great department, even though their students keep drinking all of my milkshakes.
Since there was some overawed talk about some candidates receiving gazillions of interviews I thought I should point out that some really successful candidates don't get lots of interviews because they don't apply for lots of jobs. That's why Mr/Ms 20+ interviews may not have gotten such an amazing job, because they were beaten by Mr/Ms Evenmoresupersmartypants from Princekley who was so uberconfident they only applied to about ten places. Not that that brings me much comfort.
That's why Mr/Ms 20+ interviews may not have gotten such an amazing job, because they were beaten by Mr/Ms Evenmoresupersmartypants from Princekley who was so uberconfident they only applied to about ten places.
Darn it. I hate to beat this equine corpse, but let me re-iterate. We Princeford people don't apply to jobs, jobs apply to us. Sending in applications would be terribly gauche. Like ringing the doorbell at the golf-club. If you have ask for admittance you don't belong.
I have a crush on Tiger Tree. I would buy you a drink at the APA to thank you for taking the time to write posts that amuse me so, but alas you believe in maintaining appropriate professional standards of anonymity. Perhaps if the Placement Service kindly circulates a list of everyone on the job market again this year I will be able to work out who you are.
Good luck finding her among the mob of princeford apps.
Hah! You can find me at Dirty Frank's! I'll be the one drinking a Yuengling Black and Tan.
It would be fun to have a designated Famae Volent gathering. We can all wear masks.
I suggest we gather at the Cambridge/Oxford party where we can partake of their generosity and swap cat food recipes. Any suggestions as to how to discreetly identify ourselves?
Pastel-colored polo shirts with popped collars?
Mesh John Deere baseball caps with hick-bends?
Purina Kitten Chow lapel pins?
Anyone heard anything about the Brown Romanist job?
Anon 10:00 pm: Not to doubt those who last month said that things have changed at Canadian universities... but did any non-Canadians get interviews at McMaster?
Yes.
"Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but has anyone who received a request for writing samples from Columbia heard back yet?"
Nope.
I have a crush on Tiger Tree. I would buy you a drink at the APA to thank you for taking the time to write posts that amuse me so, but alas you believe in maintaining appropriate professional standards of anonymity.
And this year's Poldy* Award goes to...Tiger Tree!
*for newbies, Poldy was a much-beloved member of FV last year and I think is still around here somewhere. Unless P is now TT?
As a member of a SC this year, I thought readers of this wiki might find the recent post on "pre-interviewing" at TenuredRadical's blog useful:
http://tenured-radical.blogspot.com/
One of the best points she makes, imho, is to do your homework on the departments with which you will be interviewing.
Congratulations Tiger Tree. famae volent fame is a heady thing. - poldy
With the (welcome) visible participation of SC members here, I think it's safe to say that FV has just about knocked off what little usefulness the APA Placement Service had. I agree some things are better the old way, but I prefer to hear about other things like the Pony Express, not live them.
I think it's safe to say that FV has just about knocked off what little usefulness the APA Placement Service had.
I agree, but I dunno how many powers-that-be do...I had a school call me to notify me of an interview last week, and the SC member who called told me how impressive s/he found the Placement Service. We've still got a long way to go, baby.
/Besides, who else would schedule me for interviews at 8 am and 8 pm on the same day?
Besides, who else would schedule me for interviews at 8 am and 8 pm on the same day?
Ahh, I see you made the rookie error of leaving those slots open. Interviews should never get in the way of a good night's sleep or a good meal!
Does anyone have a sense of what direction the open rank searches are leaning in, senior or junior? I'm interested in Roman hist. / Latin lit. I remember we had one a couple of years back and it was genuinely open, but I've heard that's not always the case.
I've always been under the assumption that open searches favor senior scholars, assuming a level playing field. Searches are presumably after "the best candidate" so this makes sense. There might be additional undercurrents, like cost and senior scholars afraid of a senior newbie rocking the boat, but I would say a search always goes for a senior scholar of any note.
Wisdom from an earlier age (last year)
So, when I was on the market mumblemumble years ago, I thought that it was pretty dang diddley stressful.
I couldn't imagine a way to make it more stressful, save if the application letters should have to be written in the style of the Hellenistic epigrammatists, replete with hidden acrostics (H-I-R-E-x-M-E). Or maybe Martial-style distichs. Or maybe a Periclean funeral oration (the hard one). Or perhaps something simple, like a fragmentary chorus of Aiskhylos.
Or perhaps interviews should be conducted in swimming pools. Or maybe all the interviewers should be dressed as Beelzebub. Maybe the candidate should be asked to explain her diss via interpretive dance. In two minutes, or less. This might at least make it easier when someone asks you to "tell us about your dissertation" and then you can't remember what Chapter Two was about or whether, God forbid, perhaps you forgot Chapter Two altogether and went straight to Chapter Three. Darnit. So that's how I ended up with seventeen chapters... I skipped the even ones.
It's stressful! It's horrible! It's *supposed to be*. It's important. It's your job, but it's also your life.
But mainly, it's your job. Remember this.
Anyway, I thought it couldn't be more stressful than it was those mumblemumble years back.
And then I found this place.
Dammit. You guys went and found a way to make one of the least enjoyable aspects of an altogether enjoyable profession (and I say this to encourage you: I have a job, and a t-t one, and I am happier than a pig in the proverbial) just *that much worse*.
Let me tell you what I know.
I have been through two job searches on the ugly end of the stick. I was once an inside candidate. I got the job. And it was a real bloody search. No nudges, no winks, no "say no more, say no more"s. 14 or so other interviewees, and 3 other campus visitors. Nothing was assured, nothing promised, nothing hinted at. I was astounded and humbled by my colleague's ethics and utter professionalism. I wanted the nudges. I wanted the winks. What I got was another terrifying, white-knuckled, and totally professional search. Interview at the APA. Dinner as a "visitor" back home. Talk in the department. Totally, excruciatingly, above the board.
And I want to say honestly that I think this is the norm rather than the exception.
Now, I am in a department that has done searches.
Whether or not we are doing one this year is beside the point. I am not on a SC this year. But I've read these posts, many of which very unfairly (and—and I know this—inaccurately) impugn some very fine departments, and scholars, and professionals, and people. I don't know who has applied where, but I take it that at least some of you are talking some serious trash about departments you'd hope to join. If you really think we are so despicably unethical, why would you want to work with us?
Stop it. Please. It does not become you. Those of us with permanent positions don't have it in for you. We remember, and quake. We think of that sweaty hotel suite, and smell sulfer. We agonize. We argue. We read files a thousand times over and fill notebooks with notes the likes of which we have not seen since orals days. We want you all to find the right jobs, stable jobs, and jobs that make you happy and let you use profitably the skills you've worked so freaking hard to acquire.
We freaking remember. Ok?
We are doing our best. The process isn't a perfect one. It's what we have. The ftf interviews are helpful because (1) it is really useful to see how a person actually reacts to living people—you aren't hiring a barrista: this person may be the person you'll grow old with. And—and listen up—(2) a lot of very good candidates shoot themselves square in the foot in a ftf interview. Bam. Bam bam bam. Some use a .45; others prefer the shotgun effect.
How to have a good interview? (oh, look, I'm giving away trade secrets)
Find the room early, but please don't knock until about 30 seconds after your time. If a hotel has two towers, make sure you know the right one.
Pee first. Don't be hungover, and don't notice it if we are.
Don't dress too funkily, but be yourself. We aren't hiring a Microsoft exec. We want a colleague, and only a few of us wear ties daily, so don't overdo it. Then again, this is not the time to advertise your fetishes. Look clean and ready to talk. Be excited about your work.
Have a short answer for your diss (or present project); it should take about two minutes. Then have a longer one; it should take five minutes. Give this only if asked to expand (you probably will be). You have only maybe 40 to 45 minutes, tops. We've read your file; we want to hear you talk about your work. If someone asks you a specific question, do your best. It's ok to take a second or two to clear your thoughts.
When you are done, stop talking. We are unlikely to stop you, unless you ramble.
Don't cover your mouth when you speak. Don't wring your hands. Don't start giving the "devil hand" and involuntarily head-banging every time someone says something interesting. If you have these ticks, work on them now.
Be prepared to talk about your next projects, but don't list six, because we won't believe you. List two or maybe three. Be specific. If you can only be specific about one, then only discuss one—but have one.
If you've claimed you can teach X, Y, or Zed, then know what bloody texts you will use. Don't say you want to teach intermediate Greek with a text that has no commentary. Know what the dept uses to teach intro courses (have notes, review them right before you go in): if you'd use something else or have only taught from something else, be up front about it, but don't go all hog diggley about criticizing a dept's choices. Chances are we are using what works for us. We are probably open to change, but we aren't looking for a revolutionary. We are looking for a compatriot.
Have a class—if it's a dept with a grad program, a seminar—you'd like to teach that IS NOT on the topic of your diss. We want to see what you have in mind to do NEXT. "Of course I'd love to teach a seminar on [the topic of my diss], but I am really looking forward to one on [another topic], which feeds into one of my next projects..."
Don't sell "Ancient Gay Sex Rawks!" to a conservative school, and don't sell "Augustus: Like Bush, but Better!" to a liberal one. But do have one or two focused "in translation" classes you might offer to undergrads. It's fine for you to shift these classes according to the school. We know you do. We want flexibility.
At some point, we will likely ask you if you have any questions. This is not the time to say "which Dakota is this, anyway?" or "how much do I get paid?" or "are your students smart?" or "is your library any good?" (No: it sucks, which is why none of us publish anyway: we hate books) It's fine to say "I don't think so—your departmental website is exceedingly informative, and I've done a lot of research into the area as a whole. You have a fantastic department, and I am very excited about this position." In short, don't ask questions that are not your business, or that you could have answered online.
Even if they don't have a fantastic dept, and even if you aren't very excited, you say this. You don't know how things will play out. As another poster said, it's a marathon.
It is also ok to say "hmmmm. I don't know. I'm still working on that aspect... thank you" if asked about something about your research you'd not considered. It's not going to sink you.
Trust me. I was full metal stupid at times in the interview that got me my job. Don't worry about that. Don't worry about one bad answer.
Relax. Do your homework. Don't freak yourself out. And please please please stop thinking that SCs are behaving unethically just because of the famae that uolent. I'm not saying it doesn't happen: only that it doesn't happen as much as people want to think it does. And that does no credit to the field we all (I hope) love.
And finally. I hope you all get interviews. Lots of them. But you only need one job. You can only take one job. At times, even that one job is going to seem like three or four.
And even then, guys, it's just a job. It's just a way of paying the bills. It's not you. It's a job, and you'll get one.
I fear this has come off wrong. If so, apologies up front. I really wish you all the best. I really do remember. And I'm only telling you what I tell all of my PhD students. And almost all of them have jobs, and most are t-t.
In boca al' lupo, Quirites! (oooh, how's that for a bastardization?)
Crepi!
Keep on drinking the Kool-aid - I hear it's refreshing.
I'm having a strange sense of deja vu.....
I'm actually not sure if it's just a job. With all the professionalization that is around in American academia it's easy to feel that way; but I like to think that academia is a job on a different scale than being a mid-level bank executive. Academia is a way of life, with its own art of living; and I think the appeal of our profession rests on that (and not on the comparatively secure jobs).
So, yes, I hope our jobs do pay the bill, but we won't be good at them if we continue to act like, live like, dress like, and think like, mid-level bank execs: what they want to get out of their jobs is that it pays the bills; what we want to get out of ours is something else that each one of us has to find out for themselves.
"we won't be good at them if we continue to... dress like... mid-level bank execs"
What would you have us wear? Togas? A simple philosopher's mantle? I'm no good at growing a beard.
Making sweeping generalizations about Princeton is so last week. This week it's bank execs!
"we won't be good at them if we continue to... dress like... mid-level bank execs"
That's why, when standing at my closet, I always ask myself WWLWIHWPAMGC?
That stands, of course, for "What would Liberace wear if he were playing a Mardi Gras concert?"
...we won't be good at them if we continue to act like, live like, dress like, and think like, mid-level bank execs...
I'm betting the person who wrote this likes to teach in jeans.
I endorse the suggestion that interviewees should really do their homework on the Departments, but don't go so far into memorizing stuff that you seem like a stalker--like in the famous William Shatner SNL skit where a sci-fi conference attendee knows that a horse on his farm had had a foal (is that the right word?) before he does. Knowing what book they use is good; memorizing their numbering system can seem a little freaky.
Some people are getting interviews this week; some people aren't, or aren't getting the ones they want or need, yet. So here are three songs about hanging tough, each with a taste of the lyrics:
Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots Pt. 1
The Flaming Lips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq-W-4Izjwc
Lyrics:
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Yoshimi-Battles-the-Pink-Robots-Pt-1-lyrics-The-Flaming-Lips/BFF7AB9DCC549A3D48256C14001E1DC9
Oh Yoshimi, they don't believe me
but you won't let those robots eat me
Yoshimi, they don't believe me
but you won't let those robots defeat me
Those evil-natured robots
they're programmed to destroy us
she's gotta be strong to fight them
so she's taking lots of vitamins
Bruce Springsteen - Dream Baby Dream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4EzcBL1yDY
lyrics:
http://www.springsteenlyrics.com/lyrics/d/dreambabydream.php
Keep the fire burning_
We gotta keep the light burning_
Come on, we gotta keep the light burning_
Come on, you gotta keep the fire burning_
Come on and dream baby dream__
Come on and dream baby dream_
Come on and dream baby dream_
Come on and dream baby dream_
Come on darling and dry your eyes_
Come on baby and dry your eyes_
Come on darling and dry your eyes_
Come on baby and dry your eyes_
Come on darling and dry your eyes_
Come on, you gotta keep on dreaming
Dont Give Up - Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7aaynDhaVc
(w/ tracy chapman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0UdesNyCow)
(Willie Nelson & Sinead O'Connor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgy1VGA2BE8 )
lyrics
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/peter+gabriel/dont+give+up_20107494.html
Don't give up
'cause you have friends
Don't give up
You're not beaten yet
Don't give up
I know you can make it good
Somebody said songs about hanging tough?
Anonymous said...
" I endorse the suggestion that interviewees should really do their homework on the Departments, but don't go so far into memorizing stuff that you seem like a stalker"
*
As a member of several SCs over the last few years, I agree. I never expected interviewees to be familiar with my work; in fact, it's weird and vaguely off-putting if they seem too eager to have memorized things I've written. My point, though, isn't just that moderation is the key - it's the likelihood that you'll start to mix people up, especially if you have a number of interviews. Nothing would be worse than telling Prof. x that you loved her book, only to find that it was Prof. y who wrote it. The potential to screw things up is too great. Your time is better spent practicing your own polished answers to (1) What your diss is on, (2) what classes you want to teach, (3) what books you would use to do that. (2) is huge, because a lot of people only think of a greek or latin class, when SCs are always looking for a cool new idea for a course taught in translation.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Boston Globe (12/10/08)
"Harvard curtails tenure searches
Move affects faculty of arts and sciences"
http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/12/10/harvard_curtails_tenure_searches/
Now this is just bloody ridiculous. Yes, Harvard's endowment has taken a hit, but does it really make a difference if you endowment goes from 50 billion to 30 billion? Is this just a symbolic gesture? State schools I can understand, private schools with huge endowments, I do not.
Granted the Harvard endowment is enormous, but they have lost 22% and predict further losses coming up. Also note that Harvard relies on its endowment for about 35% of its operating budget (viz. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/04/business/04harvard.php) so even if you dislike Harvard, you have to appreciate why they're being cautious. Also note that Harvard is a huge employer in Massachusetts, so their cautionary reaction is prudent.
Harvard is way more dependent on and aggressive with its endowment than other schools. The big state univ where I teach lost only 7% of its endowment. My SLAC undergrad alma mater is projected to lose 20% by the end of the fiscal year. Compare that to Harvard's 30%.
They should have been more prudent earlier.
In 1990 Harvard had an endowment of less than 5 billion. For nearly two decades their investments averaged better than 15% returns. I suspect that from an objective medium or long-term viewpoint their aggressive strategy will have proved perfectly "prudent".
Well, at the moment that makes, on current estimates, about 20-25 billion in twenty years. Sounds alright to me.
To my delight (or horror, depending on your perspective), I found out that sabre-tooth tigers do indeed come from...a certain place in central NJ!!!
Cringers, more like.
Are they the sabre-tooth tigers that eat kittens? (See next thread down.)
Howdy Y'all!
I am still in the process of filling out the numbers for a couple of past years, and am embarking on more. I ran across a thoroughly depressing article and feel compelled to share. Caveat lector!
http://www.slate.com/id/2142489/
Best of luck to everybody out there!
So... How many job searches are being canceled after search committees read all those abysmal comments on FV?
We have wiki vandalism now? Someone put "1 (possibly mythical)" next to 11 interviews on the counter.
Well, if you really have 11 interview and you wrote that it's not vandalism. It's just dumb.
We have wiki vandalism now? Someone put "1 (possibly mythical)" next to 11 interviews on the counter.
Well, if you really have 11 interview and you wrote that it's not vandalism. It's just dumb.
Um, a joke? I believe someone thought this was appropriate given that in another thread, someone claims to have 11 interviews though did not post it to the wiki. If you want to slog through it, it has been decided that the person is either lying or simply refuses to post to the wiki. The solution? Someone marked it but then noted that the person could be lying. This is not vandalism.
Um, a joke?
I've got a bad feeling about this.™
We already have to sift through all this crap in the Job Search Updates thread. Exporting it to the wiki seems does not sound good to me at all.
Please disregard the 10:19 post. I clicked publish too soon.
Um, a joke?
I've got a bad feeling about this.™
We already have to sift through all this crap in the Job Search Updates thread. Exporting it to the wiki does not sound good to me at all.
An unrelated question: I see that there are 51 self-identified job seekers on the wiki. Does anyone have a rough idea of what percentage of the candidate pool that represents?
Well, if you really have 11 interview and you wrote that it's not vandalism. It's just dumb.
Unicorns aren't known for their intelligence. Leprechauns, on the other hand... I suppose all will be revealed in Philly.
I see that there are 51 self-identified job seekers on the wiki. Does anyone have a rough idea of what percentage of the candidate pool that represents?
Judging from past statistics this is only about 1/6 of the total applicants. Many of these, however, are only dabbling in the market. It would be interesting to figure out what sort of applicants actually use the wiki. Presumably mostly ABDs and recent grads - not the senior and established folks. Maybe we should put another wiki counter up asking for ID info?
I'm guessing that the princeford villain is a Roman historian with AHA interviews added to the tally. Along with Latinists, they seem to be in the best shape this year.
Along with Latinists, they seem to be in the best shape this year.
Isn't that always the case? Years ago JJ O'Donnell compiled some statistics about the job market. Latinists and Roman historians were generally better off then as now. (link) (link)
Fixed links referred to at 12:57:
link 1
link 2
Yes, as someone pointed out earlier, this is almost always the case, but I think it's especially bad this year. In the past, a Latinist could get 20 interviews while a Hellenist got 14 - not that big of a deal. This year, I think it's especially bimodal. All the Hellenists I know have less than five interviews this year while the Latinists are approaching or surpassing ten.
All the Hellenists I know have less than five interviews this year while the Latinists are approaching or surpassing ten.
Could you get these Latinists to post their numbers and interviews on the wiki, then? Just to help everyone out?
Well, they were reluctant to post to begin with but with the princeford villain prowling, I don't think any of them want to be mistaken for him.
Oh, going back to what someone posted earlier, are the tallies only for jobs advertised by the APA? There is often a gray area with history and Late Antique jobs that often are but sometimes not also posted by the APA.
Oh, going back to what someone posted earlier, are the tallies only for jobs advertised by the APA? There is often a gray area with history and Late Antique jobs that often are but sometimes not also posted by the APA.
No, I also included my AHA and phone interviews arranged through the AHA service.
I am happy to hear that some people are getting 10 interviews or more, even if I am not. I was thinking that seven was the high point and was even more freaked out about this year's market than I needed to be. So those Latinists ought to go ahead and post, it will help everybody, even if some of us think they are various iterations of Blane and Steff.
To encourage those with high numbers of interviews to post, I deleted the possibly mythical comment next to 11 interviews. Really, this is a group effort. The more knowledge we have, the better we can deal with reality
I do think that the person boasting about their 11 interviews deserves the public opprobrium s/he, if real, has achieved here. Clearly it had no effect on them, but it shouldn't adversely affect others.
Is it usually the "double-dipping" historians who get the high number of interviews? I've always been curious how people get 20+ interviews.
So are the people with 5+ interviews ABD, grads who have defended, visiting professors/lecturers holding 1-to-3-year positions, or tenure-track professors? Does anyone with 2+ years of teaching experience beyond grad school have 5+ interviews?
My guess is that search committees are doing what they always do, and preferring the newest shiny trinket to emerge on the scene over people who actually have track records.
Did someone actually post that they have 11 interviews or is that just a diligent famae reader updating the counter? If someone other than the job hunter in question has posted it, can we please remove it in its entirety? It is my suspicion that this person has not been using the counter on the wiki because they have not been able to work out the password. Perhaps they are real (though if they can't work out the password the 11 interviews are improbable), but they might also just be this year's variant of wiki vandal, wrecking havoc and sowing seeds of inferiority complexes in young academic minds. There is nothing that can be done if they want be disruptive on famae volent, but let's not assist in spreading it to the wiki.
Though I am amused at what I take to be an example of the general community's inclination to helpfulness and wiki diligence.
"My guess is that search committees are doing what they always do, and preferring the newest shiny trinket to emerge on the scene over people who actually have track records."
This has to be one of the most frustrating aspects of the search. All the SC members will come on here with their sage advice about what a crapshoot it all is and how many qualified candidates do not land a TT job their first year out. Yet they will turn around and salivate over ABDs as if there must be something wrong with those in a VAP. It reminds me of how professional sports leagues get burned year after year going after "upside" rather than a proven track record (sorry for the sports analogy).
Does anyone with 2+ years of teaching experience beyond grad school have 5+ interviews?
I (Hellenist) had 7 interviews from a VAP in my 4th year beyond grad school. A lot of it just depends on the market that year and your publication record by then. They really expect you to have either 3-5 articles out (not forthcoming or under review) or a book under consideration or contract by that point. Three years seems to be the shelf life for lots of interviews otherwise.
The last nine t-t hires in the different fields of ancient studies at my Ph.D. institution have been people who were already in a temporary or a t-t position. I think it's been about a decade since someone was hired straight out of grad school.
I (Hellenist) had 7 interviews from a VAP in my 4th year beyond grad school. A lot of it just depends on the market that year and your publication record by then. They really expect you to have either 3-5 articles out (not forthcoming or under review) or a book under consideration or contract by that point. Three years seems to be the shelf life for lots of interviews otherwise.
Also a Hellenist/Greek historian; had 14 interviews my 4th year out. It was largely because it was a very good year for Greek history, and realistically I didn't have a shot at most of the jobs I interviewed for, who were looking for adv. asst./assoc. profs. Except for that hiccup, my interview rate has consistently been 5-7 at the APA, but I have been publishing at the rate of 1-2 articles a year, and finishing off a book manuscript. I have also been developing new courses and extending my teaching experience to different types of courses every chance I get.
I agree with your assessment of the situation; after a few years of VAPing, you had better be showing something on the pubs front - although WHEN they expect you to do that given extra teaching, moving around, and job hunting, who knows?
OK, where is everybody at? Way too quiet around here. It's spooky.
OK, where is everybody at? Way too quiet around here. It's spooky.
Grading? Drinking?
OK, where is everybody at? Way too quiet around here. It's spooky.
Waiting...waiting...waiting for the phone to ring or the email alert to go off. Time is running out before the holiday break.
From the Jobs Announcements thread:
we've had some trouble getting it on the APA web page (institutional - UTSA- AND organizational -APA- problems)
As far as we are concerned here on FV, only the APA is to blame.
For every post from a helpful senior scholar, we get one of these. I have no doubts that half the senior scholars out there would be TT-less if they hit the market now instead of 1972. There are probably half the jobs with double the applicants. I know so many friends who got TT jobs that were barely invited to the APA (usually much pleading from advisors and such was involved). This tells me that many people get shut out of interviews that could have exceled at a campus invite given the chance. Yet they never made it out of the gate. Can you say crapshoot?
I at least appreciated Anon 8:08's comments on his experience on a search committee. I mean it sounds similar to what I have seen (as a grad student on committees). Thanks.
For those who've been in the field for decades, do bad economies result in an uptick of senior scholars moving around? There seem to be an awful lot of seniors-only searches going on, whether explicit or implicit. I'm guessing that programs, especially top ones, want as close to a sure thing as possible and are willing to offer enough to lure seniors?
Departments have no control over whether they get to hire senior: they always ask for permission to do so, and it's the administration that says yes or no. It is much harder to pry senior searches out of an administration during tough economic times, because senior faculty are much more expensive. The senior searches going this year are miracles, not consequences of the bad economy.
In general, when a department gets an open search, it usually hires senior, because open searches are rare. Most open searches this year will probably end up with a senior person, as happens most years. It won't have anything to do with the economy.
My R1 Dept has had two searches in the past decade in which we could have hired with tenure but decided to hire a junior person. Both times we were pretty specific about field, so that cut the pool of senior people down, and then compared to that pool we liked the younger people better.
In that same Dept, I used to think we would never hire a person without PhD in hand, since we had not done so for a couple of decades, then we did it twice, although both times for people who who absolutely certain to defend before taking up the position.
I think the tendency is for open searches to end up with offers to senior people.
Also, the less attractive the searching institution, the less attractive the pool of senior people will be: all eligible junior people on the market will have applied for the position, but only those senior faculty will have done so for whom the position would be better than a lateral move. The less elite / wealthy / blessed with location / able to provide spousal employment, etc., an institution is, the harder it will be to get good senior candidates.
Obviously, this can be to the advantage of junior candidates.
Yes, but the more elite the program, the bigger the egos that already reside in the department. I've been a part of searches that pass over the obviously superior candidate thanks to these egos' fears of getting outshined. Compromise candidates are fairly common in these scenarios, and they are usually junior.
Yes, but the more elite the program, the bigger the egos that already reside in the department.
Hey! Stop it! That hurts.
But I take your point about the "compromise candidate." I can see how that might happen.
On the 12th day of Christmas, my true love gave to me
12 new job postings
11 APA interviews
10 schools for scapegoats
9 whiners whining
8 snail-mail rejections
7 angry archeologists
6 jobs for 100 historians
5 cancelled jobs!!!!!
4 VAPs
3 TTs
2 dream-jobs lost
...and an early offer for me!!!
Merry Christmas everybody! Right, I'm off to make tray-baked free range doormouse in a garum reduction sauce for my family. Thus proving the worth of my classical education without breaking the bank. Thanks to the cat.
So anoan 8:13, how many interviews do you have now? 30?
370+ candidates with 55 universities interviewing. Can anyone say heartbreak hotel for hundreds of people?
For comparison, last year there were 84 institutions interviewing at the meetings.
370+ candidates with 55 universities interviewing. Can anyone say heartbreak hotel for hundreds of people?
Where did you find these numbers, Elpis?
Those would be the numbers from RP's email; straight from the source, so to speak.
Has the password changed on the wiki?
Has the password changed on the wiki?
No.
interview emails from RP are under way...
I find it ironic that the APA decided to start the personal email service only now that the FV wiki has successfully collected almost all the information. Unless word of mouth about FV hasn't reached everyone on the market, there aren't too many people who don't already know where they are interviewing. The Placement Service takes a step forward, and proves how obsolete it is.
Even without FV, how often does one get an interview that they weren't contacted about before the APA? I guess the Placement Service wants to show that they're working hard for us, but wouldn't working smarter and ahead of the curve impress us a whole lot more?
I don't know about the rest of you, but last year, and the year before that (yes, it's been a crap few years) all of the schools that had decided to interview me let me know ahead of time.
Will the RP email tell us the actual interview schedule, or just who has requested interviews with us? If the former, that is cool. If the latter, it's kind of a waste.
I think you're in for disappointment then. This is the format, straight from the source.
Hello (your name)
Your candidate ID number is CXXX
The following schools will interview you at the convention:
School A
School B
School C
See you in January!
My favorite part is that after all the "personal" emails are sent out, a general one will be sent out again to passively let those without interviews know that the process is finished and they've been shut out. The APA Placement Service - a compassionate service.
"Even without FV, how often does one get an interview that they weren't contacted about before the APA?"
This question can be answered two ways.
1. When I was on the market some years back, I arrived at the APA to find a slip in my envelope from a school that had not bothered to contact me before the meeting; when I queried why they hadn't, the answer was, well, would it have really mattered? In fact, I ended up being flown out for a visit and in the end was offered the job, which I declined because of another offer that year.
2. Twice at the APA, "things have happened," meaning I was contacted in my hotel to come for an unscheduled interview; this means that someone who knew me spoke favorably to a committee member who had declined to interview me, but whose committee was not having a very successful search that far into the meeting. This happened, as I said, twice; one time each year I was on the market. Neither interview led anywhere, and in fact as soon as I left the room of one of the schools it was clear that they would forget having met me within 10 minutes (I was evidently the 18th, or maybe it was 21st, person they'd spoken to!).
So, none of this is to give false hope to candidates, but these things *do* happen. Don't count on it...but be prepared to be gracious and accept an interview if you get one this way, and don't under any circumstances gripe that you aren't prepped for it.
Your desire to help is admirable, but your experience gives me less confidence in the system, if that's possible - what a crapshoot.
Your desire to help is admirable, but your experience gives me less confidence in the system, if that's possible - what a crapshoot.
I think you're in for disappointment then. This is the format, straight from the source.
Hello (your name)
Your candidate ID number is CXXX
The following schools will interview you at the convention:
School A
School B
School C
See you in January!
Quit your whining! At least you have three interviews. And you scored with School B, which is an awesome place. School A, however, not so much...
And in case you didn't notice, Candidate #130, you just blew your cover. I'm scoping badge numbers the whole time until I figure out who you are. Then I'm gonna steal one of your three yellow slips when you're not looking, you Princeford punk.
Unless word of mouth about FV hasn't reached everyone on the market...
We can safely assume that only a minority of job candidates check the wiki, and fewer still are up to date with FV's unfolding psychosis.
When I was on the market some years back, I arrived at the APA to find a slip in my envelope from a school that had not bothered to contact me before the meeting
Similar. Two slips, in fact, for two separate reasons. The first school either hadn't emailed me or simply ignored the fact that the email had bounced. (They sent a paper letter but I'd already told them I wouldn't be able to pick up my mail). The second school just got its act together late in the day. Thankfully I had other interview notifications, because if not I probably wouldn't have bothered with the APA and even if I'd gone I almost certainly wouldn't have prepared anything. (Which would have minimized my chances of getting the job I now have). I doubt this kind of thing happens that often, but if you want anecdotal evidence, well, there you go.
OK, serious props to the Placement Service. These emails have actually been very helpful. It is nice knowing which schools have decided to interview you before you get to the APA.
But I'm really not sure why the SCs themselves couldn't have taken a few minutes to notify us directly like everybody else. I am happy to get an interview, but not impressed with the lack of communication by certain schools (Baylor, Furman... I'm looking at you!). Computer challenged? Enjoy the frisson of surprise? Clueless?
What gives?
Anyone else -- who knows for a fact they have interviews -- not receive an email from RP? I understand Rome wasn't built in a day and all, but I'm impatient, and strongly suspect that the email will bring welcome news for me.
yes - i know for a fact I've got interviews, and no email yet...
i also know that white Bordeaux is delicious, and reasonably priced compared to Burgundy....
...and we jobless academics simply _must_ be cost-conscious these days...
I think I read the RP email correctly but I could have glazed over but did it say that those of us who failed to send in our availability sheets by Nov. 26 won't get slotted into emails until the APA itself? Or will we simply receive no personalized notifications?
No soup for you - one year!
Hey, elpis has left the building -
I appreciate the pun, but I was elpis first! :-P And I ain't left the building yet - that'll happen the week after the APA.
Just thought that readers of this site might be interested in some of the recent posts by Tenured Radical on interviewing at the meetings (in her case the AHA, but it is not that different from the APA/AIA). Check it out:
http://tenured-radical.blogspot.com/
Seconded.
Tenured Radical is awesome.
The Placement Service email is helpful, but my colleagues in religion coordinate directly with the search committees, and they (gasp) actually arrange the exact times of their interviews at least a week in advance - usually more.
It baffles me that RP sits in front of her computer for several days sending pseudo-personal emails to 300+ candidates. Paste, edit, send, paste, edit, send, etc. This is fine for maybe 50-100 candidates, but this is ridiculous for 300+ people. They should talk with any admissions office about what it takes to set up a secure site for SCs and candidates to log into for up-to-date info. Unfortunately, this is like 20 years into the future when most of us will have tenure and most of the SC members will be relaxing in Florida or wherever.
Anyone who can speak on the subject of placement without frothing at the mouth should probably make a brief sales pitch to David Konstan (VP Professional Matters) or someone on the Placement Cttee (e.g., Matt Roller). If we could come up with a brief, economical plan any one of us could take the opportunity at a party to say something. (Though it'd freak me out if fifteen different people accosted me over three days saying exactly the same thing.)
So far suggestions I remember on FV have included:
1) purchasing scheduling software 2) setting up a secure website for scheduling information
Was there anything else constructive?
Anyone who can speak on the subject of placement without frothing at the mouth should probably be given a job straight away.
(Though it'd freak me out if fifteen different people accosted me over three days saying exactly the same thing.)
It would freak out Roller or one of his colleagues more if fifteen different people each came up and said that RP "is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life."
(movie reference)
Enough with the RP bashing. That's not cool. Seriously. Remember the no names policy here!
That said, apparently the "other" APA, and its placement service, sucks too.
Second.
I have a question about interviews dress code. Do women have to wear a suit (or anything with a jacket), or would a dressy skirt and blouse/sweater work?
I have a question about interviews dress code. Do women have to wear a suit (or anything with a jacket), or would a dressy skirt and blouse/sweater work?
Wear professional but comfortable. If you don't feel comfortable in a jacket, wear a sweater. If you feel uncomfortable, you'll probably look uncomfortable. Skirts are up to you. I saw a lot in San Diego, but not so many in Chicago...
Anon 8:47, in my humble opinion you should definitely go with the pant suit. All the men and most of the other women will. Realizing that you are the least-professional looking one will make you more uncomfortable than the suit will.
Am I the only one who didn't get an APA program in the mail?
No, you're not alone, but it is available online:
http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/09mtg/Program.pdf
The url was cut off
http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/09mtg/
Program.pdf
Thanks, I just printed it out. I thought for my hundred bucks I would at least get a program, but maybe if I complain they'll give me one when I get there.
They are giving out programs at the meeting, when you pick up your registration materials. Saving on postage.
Finally! I've been complaining for years about wasting postage, time and energy -- and half the time the program shows up after I've left for the APA. This is good news. They are learning!
Does anyone know if Swarthmore is interviewing at the meetings for their 1-year job?
Does anyone know if Swarthmore is interviewing at the meetings for their 1-year job?
According to the RP emails, they will be handing in an interview list to the Placement Service when they get there. They are interviewing for the 1-year, but presumably not the TT since the deadline for the TT is Jan 15. People who applied to the 1-year, however, are supposedly being considered for the TT.
Where is everybody?
These threads have gone as silent as my phone. Waiting... waiting... waiting...
I looked and last year there was a trickle of notifications on Wednesday after the APA that exploded the following week. I think many SCs are still recovering from the APA and trying to start their term at the same time. Combined with the drop in searches, I don't think we'll get much info until late next week and maybe into the following week.
OK, I'll start something up - just got a rejection email from Cincinnati, which is way late because it clearly should have been sent pre-APA. But best of all, it's addressed "Dear candidate." C'mon, 99% of schools manage to address candidates by name. Not hard, ya know?
Don't forget that there seemed to be significant overlap between some high profile institutions fighting for the same candidates. There were rumors of SCs scheduling flybacks during the APA! This in turn, I believe, spurred unrelated searches to issue their own flyback invitations. I don't think it's bad when SCs have a chance to be more methodical instead of things reverting to a candidate-grab.
Anonymous 5:20, do you mean last year or this year (the APA-scheduled flybacks)?
Last year - as far as I know, nothing similar has happened this year (or people are getting better about keeping it under wraps, thanks to FV?).
I've noticed that schools are already making offers for VAP positions. I've interviewed for both VAP and tenure track positions. What do I do if a VAP offer is made but I'm pretty certain that no campus invites have been issued for the tenure track positions? Is it normal for VAP offers to be made this early?
In my (limited) experience, it is normal for some VAP offers to be made early, and it is likely that the schools making early offers will give you a healthy amount of time to accept. I know also that they will sometimes let the #2-?? candidates know the scenario, too. In other words, I've found that the hiring institutions keep the VAP process pretty fair & transparent.
Is it normal for VAP offers to be made this early?
I have heard that some VAP positions are being offered early in order to secure the position with the school. The longer the position sits open, the more likely the administration is to cut it as part of budget adjustments.
I would let the school know that you are still waiting on other schools you have interviewed with. I would then contact those schools, tell them you have an offer on the table which you are willing to wait accepting and ask them if/when they will be making campus invite decisions. You may not be on the short list and then you give up a job for nothing. If they tell you that you are on the short list, then you go back to the VAP school and let them know and request extended time to make the decision.
I know also that they will sometimes let the #2-?? candidates know the scenario, too.
Some schools do this (it happened to me last year). It was really nice of them. Especially since I ended up getting the job.
Which schools have made VAP offers? The wiki shows only Irvine.
VAP offers have been made in anthro and history, but they are on an earlier time table than classics. I believe art history (like the Irvine position) is usually on a later time table, so I'm not sure why they are so early.
Yes, art history is on a later time table than classics. Their big meeting is at the end of February. Interview requests are currently rolling in.
I thought Irvine filled this position last year. Perhaps they're testing the market again in case the current VAP finds a better gig?
You took the words right off my keyboard.
Re: Irvine
Perhaps they're testing the market again in case the current VAP finds a better gig?
No. I believe the person hired last year left for personal reasons, about which we should not speculate.
Yes, art history is on a later time table than classics. Their big meeting is at the end of February. Interview requests are currently rolling in.
would you mind saying which art history interviews are rolling in?
Yes, do tell. CAA only lists 2 art history searches for ancient art...
OP here.
I don't know about the progress of the ancient searches run through the CAA. A friend, who works in a different area of art history, has a few interviews lined up.
There were precious few Greco-Roman searches, but several mentioned "ancient" as one possible specialization or teaching area. There was SUNY New Paltz (apparently canceled), Chicago (either canceled or moving slowly), Rochester Institute of Technology (CAA interviews set-up), UCI (job offered), Wells College, New York City College of Technology, Towson University (also wanted architecture), Appalachian State, Knox College (VAP), Kennesaw State (pre-Renaissance), and a couple others.
Many, if not most, of these jobs are *not* for ancient MC, specifically, but are more generally pre-modern. Add to these the generalist positions (similar to classics generalists but, as you can image, covering a much greater time period) and it looks on paper like MC people are doing alright. On paper . . .
On the other hand, I have one overseas lotteries several times in the last two days. Apparently my spam filter can't resist the temptation any longer.
Ugh, please forgive embarrassing typos in the post above. I was blinded by my latest lotto win of 500,000 pounds Stirling.
Still not word from the vast majority of searches - Feb looks to be a hectic month. What's up? Are SCs still basking in the afterglow of the inauguration?
APA was late is the reason for delays, I think. Normally it's a week earlier. IIRC, quite a lot of schools informed around this time last year.
I am starting to fidget myself into a frenzy, waiting to hear. I know objectively that it hasn't been that long, but it feels like forever since the APA/AIA--and for some reason the lack of FV chatter and news today is particularly impatient-making. I was looking forward to a flood of new information after the long weekend!
I'm not on the market, so maybe it's cold comfort me to reassure you, but...
Years back I came back from the APA; I had a major coup - a bigshot school had interviewed me there and, true to the rumors, they'd called me on Saturday night after they'd finished all their interviews to let me know that they wanted me to come to campus. Huge thrill, obviously.
Big schools can do that only because they faculty is so big that search committees can make most of the executive decisions themselves; so they meet and draw up the short list for call backs themselves.
With the smaller schools I ended up getting invited to, I had to wait maybe 3 weeks or even more to hear something. I thought that was seriously weird and a long time to wait. (I still do, but now I understand why.) When I got to the smallest of the schools that invited me, it made sense: virtually every decision the department wanted to make had to be approved by numerous administrators before any action could be taken; and that of course all depended on how quickly those administrators could get around to addressing the issue.
So...hang in there. It ain't over yet. It's not bad news that you haven't heard anything...
On the other hand, if you don't hear something by c. Feb. 1st, I'd say it's probably over at that point...
Most of the Wiki is unmarked regarding campus visits, so yeah, it's too early to panic. No, hold on, I've got it completely wrong, it's never too early to panic.
Still, what's most disheartening about the wiki is the relatively few people who have callbacks, with many of those having multiple callbacks. It sort of illustrates the problems we've talked about on here before, that there are "hot" candidates and then the rest of us.
(This is not to start that whole debate again, and it might change after the rest of notifications trickle in.)
I'd like to know how that Princagoberkford villain is doing (if he really exists...)
I know someone who got the usual APA interview in January but had to wait until March to hear a flyback offer. That someone ended up getting the job, too. So never lose hope.
I'd like to know how that Princagoberkford villain is doing (if he really exists...)
Didn't you hear? His committee couldn't stand him and his attitude so badly, they failed him at his defense.
Just wanted to let everyone know that although I just got another rejection notification (by snail no less), my credentials were "impressive."
Mommsen ain't got nothing on me.
Mommsen ain't got nothing on me.
'Cept that Nobel Prize for Literature!
Mommsen ain't got nothing on me.
nobel prize AND boyish good looks
(http://www.livius.org/a/1/romanempire/mommsen.jpg)
It's time for a poll!
Who's hotter?
Mommsen
OR
Gildersleeve
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/Untitled03.jpg
Nobel prizes are highly over-rated.
As are tenure-track jobs. What's your point?
Mommsen-Nobel prize-nothing on me...
Of course, Mommsen had tenure as well so he had something else besides the Nobel and the good looks on most of us here.
You make tenure sound as important if not more so than a Nobel. I hope I am mistaken as I will then have less hope for the future of Classics, if that's even possible. I would gladly take the million dollars and never look back at the classics world again. Mind you I'm not talking about the literature, culture, etc, when I say "classics world."
Nobel prizes are highly over-rated.
That's true in the last 10-15 years, especially in Peace and Literature. But Mommsen won it when it mattered and meant something, in 1902.
I know it will probably generate severe resistance from SCs, like many things on this site, but could we think about adding a "cheers and jeers" section to this blog, assuming that no individuals are named. There is something like this for all disciplines on various wikis, but it's not discipline specific and it's often not constructive. I have received some amazing rejection letters from some SCs, and they should rightfully be singled out for their professionalism and empathy. On the flipside, I've experienced some horrendous interviews/letters this year that are beyond the pale when compared even to previous years. I seriously sat in bush league interviews where SC members on their thrones are borderline hazing candidates basically asking why you are deserving of such a scarce commodity. I'm sure that many of us have happily done our jig and kissed their feet, and I don't think less of this, but this lack of professionalism should be highlighted, in my opinion.
That's true in the last 10-15 years, especially in Peace and Literature. But Mommsen won it when it mattered and meant something, in 1902.
Look, I know there only like five of us losers on this site, but we can't seriously be having this conversation. Please god let someone say something stupid and controversial to liven things up. Otherwise I'll have to fixate on my job chances, and there's not much to fixate on.
Dead Angles and Anonymous 4:36: amen to both of you! I think both your wishes could be fulfilled in one fell swoop with the implementation of Dead Angles' proposal. Shout-outs or the opposite would definitely stir the pot, and help pass the time until the rejections (or, beyond hope, the call-backs) start rolling in. I share some of Dead Angles' sentiments about one of my interviews so I am curious as to whether others had a similar experience with that school...although I'm not sure how to get around the problem of naming & shaming. I'm personally a little reluctant to do so, but would welcome it if others did. ;-) Hearing from others might embolden me...
We would just have to name the institution, department, and postitives/negatives. I think it would be fairly obvious whether the person had an axe to grind with no grounds. On the flipside, if several candidates concurred, it would hopefully serve as a deterent against such ridiculous behavior. It really is the only recourse we have against these sabre-tooth tigers who have been in their towers so long that they have no idea how normal humans should behave.
"That's true in the last 10-15 years, especially in Peace and Literature. But Mommsen won it when it mattered and meant something, in 1902."
The amazing thing to me about this comment is that I'm sure it was made by a young person under 40, yet it sounds like an old curmudgeon. Classics: spawning elitists since 1556.
The amazing thing to me about this comment is that I'm sure it was made by a young person under 40, yet it sounds like an old curmudgeon. Classics: spawning elitists since 1556.
Good to meet you, fellow snide elitist! Talk about sounding like you're over 40!
Dead Angles, I'm not on the market, no dog in this fight, but I've been around this discipline for quite a while. Please consider your suggestion _very_ carefully. A 'jeer' - a complaint about any one person's experience with a dept - might well serve to identify the jeerer to the dept, if the event was (unknown to you) a one-off. As you're suggesting, not all depts are merciful, and some are gossipy with other depts. What you thought was an anonymous complaint could be a career killer, and you would never know. Classics is a shockingly small field, compared to others that sport such tell-all blogs or sites, and not much is truly anonymous. If you have a complaint about truly unprofessional conduct, the APA's committee on professional matters might be able to help.
Dead Angles, et al.
We understand the desire for such a thread (really, we do!). We don't want to introduce such things here, however, and will vigorously delete anything resembling what you suggest.
A "cheers only" section could be sustainable, though no doubt many SCs deserve many jeers as well (we can think of a few ourselves). If you want to open up a section on the wiki to do as you wish, then that is your right, as that is a completely "open" and non-moderated forum. Please resist doing so here, however.
Sorry to shoot it down, but we are trying our best to keep this site as respectful as possible (and greatly regret some failures up until this point). We fear your plan would inevitably lead to chaos, bitterness and many unforeseen, regrettable consequences.
Cheers,
Donatus
So the sabre-tooths win again.
Donatus - why not change your lame blog into a forum for congratulating the old silverbacks who preside over this pathetic field? you could give out stars for institutions who bullied the most - i guess you are just sharpening your own fangs for when you join their hoary ranks.
Dear Anonymous,
You are free to start your own blog - it is not hard, I hear - for whatever you would like. I would probably read it. What would a good title be?
- poldy
"That's true in the last 10-15 years, especially in Peace and Literature. But Mommsen won it when it mattered and meant something, in 1902."
This person is joking. Either that or they think Mommsen matters more than Medecins Sans Frontieres. 'Cos when when someone's macheted my limbs what I really want is a copy of the Romische Geschichte. That'll make a sweet prosthetic. (And yeah, sure, Arafat probably wasn't the smartest choice.)
"Donatus - why not change your lame blog into a forum for congratulating the old silverbacks who preside over this pathetic field? you could give out stars for institutions who bullied the most - i guess you are just sharpening your own fangs for when you join their hoary ranks."
This person is joking.
Thank God. Somebody finally realized I was joking. Leave a snark tag off and you start a whole thing. Well, it was entertaining, folks. Ciao!
This blog just lost some serious street cred.
So the sabre-tooths win again.
Well, if Classics doesn't work out for them, somebody clearly has a future in the dramatic arts...
You are free to start your own blog - it is not hard, I hear - for whatever you would like.
Exactly. They're free, they're easy to use, and you can complain about whatever you want, for as long as you want, in complete anonymity. I bet "classicssearchcommitteesiresent.blogspot.com" is still an available URL.
You could also start your own blog about how sucky and lame Famae Volent is, and how everybody there is a bunch of lame sucky stupid stinky sellouts who suck, and how everything would be way more awesome if you were in charge of Famae Volent, and how everybody someday is going to be sorry that they were so stupid and sucky and didn't do what you wanted them to, and they'll probably cry and whimper a little, and they'll come crawling back to you to apologize and say that you were right all along and they'll beg you to forgive them but you'll be all, like, "whatevs," and that'll show them, because that's what they deserved for sucking so much, and how then the President and Jesus and Bruce Lee will give you a big shiny medal for being right all along, and how that's going to be so awesome and you can hardly wait.
I bet it'd make for some pretty darn thought-provoking reading.
Donatus - why not change your lame blog into a forum for congratulating the old silverbacks who preside over this pathetic field? you could give out stars for institutions who bullied the most - i guess you are just sharpening your own fangs for when you join their hoary ranks.
That's the ticket! We knew all along a better idea would come!
Don't worry, we will certainly throw up a prominent link to whatever rants and raves blog you carve out in the ol' blogosphere.
Now, off to nuke some popcorn and settle down for yet another marathon session of "Heathers"!
Cheers,
Donatus
White, elitist, sabre-tooth tigers, white, elitist, feminist sabre-tooth tigers, and white, elitist, sabre-tooth cubs waiting in the wings.
It is becoming evident that SCs and senior scholars are intent in controlling and even undermining this blog. From what I can tell, candidates are honest, overly emotional at times, but honest.
Look over some of the past comments. Two that come to mind immediately are the Cornell and FSU searches. As soon as rumors surfaced (which later proved to be true) concerning the eminent demise of their positions, we received blatantly untrue spin shortly afterwards, despite how precarious the positions actually were.
Exhibit A
Hi - despite the rumors, please note that Cornell's job (Townsend postdoc) is very much a definite go. It's not affected by the hiring freeze. Please help spread the word.
Exhibit B
I have no reason to say this other than a gut reaction, but I doubt FSU would go to the search-well again if it wasn't with something of a guarantee that they would get the position this time. Searches cost money, you know, and if their administration didn't think they could fund it, I doubt they would have let the act of searching go through again.
It's obvious that many of these senior scholars are uncomfortable with this blog and wiki (one even went as far as to put a counter in the wiki that reads, "I'm a current Search Committee member who is a little nervous about this whole system….. 01."). Why? Because they can't control and shit on it like pretty much everything in their world. Yes, there are a bunch of fantastic senior scholars in the field. But there are also way too many egomaniacal ones who could obviously care less about the long term future of this discipline. Yes, they are in every field, but it's especially epidemic with classics.
The classics matrix does have a lot of us. It's time for some to wake up and realize there's a entire world out there, including deans and provosts, that thinks our discipline is a relic. Why? I think anon. 9:35 has pointed it out, though I'm sure it wasn't their original intent. RIP
To Anonymous 12:02 ("You could also start your own blog about how sucky and lame Famae Volent is, and how everybody there is a bunch of lame sucky stupid stinky sellouts who suck..." blah blah blah):
I guess this is supposed to be sarcastic. It also reveals a shocking lack of imagination about the other possibilities available to us. Way to maintain the status quo there!
Well, I think the sabre-tooth cubs will be sorely disappointed in their kingdom when they're finally crowned king in a couple decades.
Kingdom? Ha! There hasn't been a kingdom in decades. It's more akin to a village run by the resident idiots.
"But there are also way too many egomaniacal ones who could obviously care less about the long term future of this discipline."
I don't think it's a question of whether they care or not, they just don't know better. They're shitting on you just like they were shit on by their seniors. They do the things they do because they don't know anything else. Why? Because it's always been done that way and that's what will make classics thrive, the 21st century be damned.
I guess this is supposed to be sarcastic. It also reveals a shocking lack of imagination about the other possibilities available to us. Way to maintain the status quo there!
Actually, I thought my suggestion sounded a lot like what the commenter who wrote the following would say on their own blog:
Donatus - why not change your lame blog into a forum for congratulating the old silverbacks who preside over this pathetic field? you could give out stars for institutions who bullied the most - i guess you are just sharpening your own fangs for when you join their hoary ranks.
It's true that the person doesn't actually say "sucky," but you can totally tell they're thinking it.
Look, if you think somebody else's blog is lame and doesn't do what you want it to, go start your own blog that does what you want it to. Don't complain because other people don't do with their blog what you would do if it were yours; or rather, if you want to complain about that, do it on your blog. Post links to it here, and then everybody who wants a blog like your blog can go read it and comment on it. Seriously. It takes maybe five minutes to set up a blog, and it's completely free. You can mention all the names you want, totally anonymously, with virtually zero chance of being prosecuted for libel. Go. Knock yourself out.
So looking at your crystal ball and past experience, what are people's opinions as to how the classics job market will bounce back? Once the economy picks back up, will we be back up to 85 jobs or does classics lose something permanently each time the economy tanks?
"You can mention all the names you want, totally anonymously, with virtually zero chance of being prosecuted for libel."
"Please consider your suggestion _very_ carefully...As you're suggesting, not all depts are merciful, and some are gossipy with other depts. What you thought was an anonymous complaint could be a career killer, and you would never know."
What's with these thinly veiled threats? So on top of all the control that these sabre-tooths exercise over us, a little insurrection is met with threats of litigation and black-listing? Me things a tea party or two are in order. We live in the U S of #@$ A, not 18th century England. The most disheartening thing is that these sabre-tooths were probably the ones prancing around in the 60s talking of love.
Classics IS dead. The body's been blown away and the brain just does not know yet.
Insurrection? It's hardly an insurrection. We're just attempting to point out the abhorrent behavior perpetrated by some SC members. If a department does not like it, put this sabre-tooth back in line, at the decanal level if need be. It's not slander if it's true.
What's with these thinly veiled threats?
Oh, for crying out loud. By "virtually zero" I meant that you can't ever fully count out the possibility of somebody getting their shorts in a twist and figuring out who you are if you drop enough hints. And that's just a matter of their developing a suspicion about your identity, not of them bringing it to court; I have never heard of an anonymous blogger, let alone commenter, being prosecuted for libel. To people not hopped up on their third cup of paranoia today, "virtually zero" means "virtually zero," not "unsettlingly real."
I'm not a "sabre-toothed silverback" or whatever monstrous thing has been created in this laboratory of cross-bred metaphors. I just think it's silly for people to complain about how someone else runs their blog when they could just start their own and run it exactly the way they want it run, and I was trying to convey the idea that it's incredibly easy and basically risk-free to set up a blog. Five minutes, and you're living in a paradise where all the rules are yours, and you can talk about whatever you want.
Now, this new blog will of course never come to be, but it won't be because of fear of reprisal. It'll be because the person who wants it is too lazy to think of an alias and fill out a couple of forms on Blogger, and would rather just berate Servius et al. for running their blog wrong.
Let's blow this popsicle stand!
I put a section on the wiki where we can do what FV won't allow.
I named it "Cheers and Jeers" and started it off myself. I don't have any complaints, but would be interested in hearing about others' negative experiences.
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