I see the Servii deleted my comment wherein I enumerated multiple known perverts and predators in Classics. I'm not sure why this is, since in my estimation people deserve to know the sort of deviants who exist within our ranks. I didn't name names either, not that this matters since the behavior of these individuals, in my estimation, eliminates any merit for anonymity.
The Servii are right. People's lives are being shattered and destroyed by a mere allegation. Some are true and some are false. Some are old and some are new. There is no recovery for someone falsely accused - life and career are gone. Is there no such thing any longer as due process?
Ummm...several of the people I mentioned in the deleted post were convicted and sent to jail. Or in the case of the one who offed himself was scheduled to be sent to jail. They already had their due process, so I'm unsure what you're talking about in terms of false accusations. The others are well-known for their predilections even if they haven't been convicted of anything yet.
Since many if not all of the deleted cases all were reported on by the public press, I don't understand which part of the FV rules prevents the public details of those cases to be discussed? They're not junior, these aren't insinuations, it's not attacking their credentials...? Maybe the Servii can explain that particular detail? Thx.
Servius here: We haven’t been deleting links to news stories or accusations that have been dealt with in the court system — we deleted one post because it contained accusations that (to our knowledge) haven’t been adjudicated in a formal public way, and that were only ‘anonymous’ in the most superficial sense. This is the standard we have articulated: "The others are well-known for their predilections even if they haven't been convicted of anything yet" is not sufficient for this space.
I'm with Servius on this one. When someone's actions make the news, that's fair game, as it should be. When someone expresses an opinion but hasn't been proven to engage in any wrongdoing, that's crossing the line. We should certainly scrutinize people that we feel are violating a code of ethics or the law or are likely to do so, but until that happens, ad hominem attacks are just rumor-mongering. That's how our legal system works too. It doesn't mean we can't discuss those members of the field and what we have heard about them, but a public forum is not the proper venue for those conversations.
Consider the following thought-experiment: imagine that a scholar had written in favor of racial separatism and had published a volume with Richard Spencer's organization. Would ANYONE be deleting references to this? Would Eidolon be waging (secular, intersectional) jihad against such a scholar?
Eidolon doesn't wage "jihad" -- it posts long, sometimes meandering pieces that take too long to get through. Jihad requires the quick flash of the sword as a head flies up into the air and then falls to the sand.
Added a post to wiki for a permanent lectureship in Greek archaeology at Edinburgh, deadline mid-May. They seem to have a good record of hiring internationally, including a few U.S. faculty.
I can see Donna Zuckerberg and the Eidolon gang imagining themselves as rabid Jihadis, ready to slice the dicks off the proverbial Herms of the white supremacy, sexism, and misogyny that they see everywhere in Classics. In reality, though, they're not nearly as exciting.
...seeing all this a bit late, but is it really the case that the Servii are using their abilities as moderators to protect the identity of a well-known serial abuser, harasser and pedophile? And even going above and beyond protecting his identity--I saw the initial post, now deleted, and it did not name names, give institutional affiliation, use initials, or say anything other than that this person had given a talk at CAMWS. And that's now worthy of censorship? Clearly the current Servii are right that they're not the people to do this job.
@1:46: agree: if people want censorship, they can read Eidolon or the Orwellian statements put out by the SCS under pressure from Eidolon. Sadly that may be all that's left after FV is entombed.
@12:28: agree, they're comically banal and excessively predictable as they continuously engage in unintended self-parody. But it's a way of virtue signalling and of building one's credentials for that next Classics job ad that requires a diversity-conscious candidate with a reliable record of exhibiting the various psychoses of our time, er I mean heroically battling oppression.
While we're on the subject of diverse-conscious job candidates. I'm a woman of color and had a couple of interviews this year where I was asked how I could help diversify the field. I don't know why, but I felt a bit peeved... as if I haven't dealt with enough!... like, how is it my fucking burden to shoulder? Am I wrong to feel this??
5:23: I'm pretty sure that that is a stock question asked of all candidates by some SCs. It's sometimes required by a university's HR that the question be asked. I was asked it several times, and friends that interviewed for the same jobs (including a female POC, a gay white guy, and a straight white guy) all got asked it as well. I'm not a POC, but I can understand why you would be peeved, but I suspect it wasn't directed at you in particular.
I'm a male POC and I sort of get where you're coming from but I can see the upside too. While that's probably, as 5:36 pointed out, a stock question that gets asked, I do think that considering how few POC there are in the field that in some ways we're better equipped than our non-POC peers to foster increased diversity. The first thing that jumps to mind is representation and mentoring. People have pondered here why there as so few POC who major in Classics and the humanities but may just take a class or two, I think representation has something to do with it. Seeing somebody who looks like you at the front of the class (or who just isn't white) can make a huge difference, and that can translate to mentoring and the like. Just my two cents.
@6:20, I see your point but then... I am honestly, I am actually not sure I want to drag a POC into a dying, impoverished field that will probably always be dominated by white men.
So, I applied for a postdoc that closed for applications 6 weeks ago. Still no reply. Is it suicidal to reach out to the SC Chair, who I’ve already been in contact with prior to applying (and who strongly encouraged me to apply) about the status?
It’s late April, and I really need to know if I have to accept an extension as a current VAP for another year where I am (they’re pressuring me to let them know).
If your current employer gives you a deadline (or you think that there is a de facto deadline), just email the chair and explain your deadline and ask whether you'll know either way by then.
The Dept posted the VAP job last week, but told me to tell them ASAP if I’ll still be here. It’s a soft deadline and I’d really hate to tell my current school that I’ll be here, just to save a spot for myself and torpedo anyone else’s chance only to then inform them that I’ll be leaving after all. ...to make matters worse (from a certain perspective), I am a finalist for a few recently-posted TTs, which only further complicates this whole mess.
Given my luck, I’ll be the nice guy and let my current school know that I don’t know.. lose my spot here, and get passed on for the PostDoc and the sitting TTs. ... :/
OK, so email the post-doc now to see what the status is - post-docs and VAPs are roughly comparable kinds of animals.
If you hear that you're not a finalist for the post-doc (or they say - 'we can't tell you'), I'd tell your home institution you would like to stay. You have no good reason to think the post-doc will work out for you. Maybe the post-doc will say 'call us,' and you'll find out you can expect an offer, in which case you can start to push for a real offer in order to be able to say 'no' definitively to your home institution.
The TT jobs are another matter. You can't rush those searches, so just keep going and if one works out, ditch the VAP. They will understand. They will scramble and find someone.
-anonymous FV deplorable, currently VAP-ing and adjuncting next year.
@1:46. I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to email those TT SCs to see if you have made the shortlist. You can't demand it, but you can explain your situation and say that "any further information they can provide about the timeline" would be very helpful and that you would be grateful for it.
If you are strongly encouraged to apply, there is nothing wrong with a polite email asking for an update on the search. You already have some relationship with the SC member, and they should understand that you have your own deadlines. Indeed, it is in their interest not to have the search go on.
Quite a few new T-T jobs appeared about 3 weeks ago. They've all already contacted for interviews.
Ashland University, Florida Southern College, and another that I can't remember off the top of my head that I didn't apply to. Plus there was the (rather recent) Mississippi State job.
^^^ The Ashland and Florida Southern jobs are completely out of the question for Classics folks, though. Both jobs require the training to teach Medieval history, and the FSC job also wants an historian who can teach modern history survey courses (e.g., history of the holocaust; modern Middle East).
I've interviewed for both, and they both want a broadly trained "historian" who has experience in teaching a wide breadth of history courses.
...This likely explains why quite a few Classics folks here not aware of the jobs.
The third new job was in the UK.. I don't remember what institution either, but I have zero interest in moving there, so I didn't apply either. There was also a T-T job that recently came out for Australia, but again, who really is prepared to move that far for a job?
@ 8:58, 6-ob. Keep snubbing your nose at SLACs that you don't like the sound of and you'll remain unemployed. This is not the kind of market to have that kind of attitude in. It's a buyer's market and folks like you and I are a dime a dozen.
There's no shame in being a T-T prof at ANY school. Any. Even a Community College. So, we can condescend all day long but when there's 60-70 PhDs from TOP schools with amazing CVs all putting in for the same 8-12 jobs, I don't think anyone has the right to pass on a school that's not "good enough" for them.
Though, I prefer to have less competition, so by all means only apply for T-T jobs at Princeton and Oxford.
A fellow ABD of mine at a top-10 was offered a T-T job at a low-3rd tier school of rather embarrassing name, and her advisor said "pass on it. The school isn't prestigious enough."
But... Her advisor is ~ 60 years old and hasn't been on the market since the late '70s. Remember that 99.9% of folks will get ONE T-T offer for their entire career, if they're lucky, so to pass on one or disparage someone for going to a 'meh' school that's offering them T-T ?? That is beyond asinine.
She accepted the school's offer and now is part of a very rare club of "employed" humanities PhDs.
(I am happy that this board is anonymous so that I can share this)
Most posters that speak ill of schools or scholars are simply angry and jealous that they were passed on. I understand their frustration, and I have no problem admitting that I, too, found myself at times enraged and at times in tears at the news that a job that I felt I was perfect for didn't even ask me for a first-round interview.
I can also admit that I lashed out here on occasion, rather unfairly, at the person who did get the job or at the institution on account of my emotions. I'm not proud of it, and in fact, I am extremely embarrassed that I have said some of the things that I have said on here out of (unjustified) anger. Fortunately, many of my horrible posts were deleted swiftly.
...It's very hard to face the reality that, even though you may have a chain of amazing pedigrees, PhD from a top-5 in hand, 15+ fellowships/scholarships/grants, 5-6 publications, presented at 12+ international conferences, have 5-6 years of teaching experience, been awarded teaching awards (numerous times), and have the field's most recognizable LOR writers, you can still end up with zero interviews, zero prospects.
...Is it unfair ? It sure is. But, life is unfair. Though I'm now facing a summer with no job, no prospects for the fall, and a mountain of bills and a family to take care of to boot, I can look at how I handled this particular job year as a year that I learned a very valuable (and honestly, very needed) lesson in humility.
So, let me say, for as much of a part in FV's downfall as I feel responsible for: I am sorry to all of you. I am sorry that I was one of the posters here who was particularly venomous. Hopefully, since this is an anonymous forum, since I ahve no obligation to sa anything, and that nobody will ever know who I am, my fellow FV-ers will take my apology as sincere.
Can you craft a narrative where there's a reason under your control that caused your circumstances? Did you pick a boring topic to be a scholar of? Has anybody helped you calibrate the tone of your self-presentation? How are your interpersonal skills? Are you often venomous and then contrite, all anonymously? Just asking.
I began the job cycle in the fall being optimistic and cheerful. I really don’t know what factor there is to blame for my complete failure to be considered for any positions. My dissertation topic is very unboring; in fact, it is so unboring that it manages to get me invited to 3 different conferences, and managed to have me be the only ABD asked to contribute a book chapter to a monograph that was otherwise a collection of seasoned veterans and leading scholars in the field. All aspects of my portfolio (cover letters, CV, teaching philosophy, etc..) have gone through numerous stags of edits from 2 of my advisors. I am not kind of person to be mean or venomous at all; I didn’t begin to be that way until late January, when everything, when every door was shut and when even VAP jobs went to others that I deemed unsatisfactory.
...it’s a very hard thing for me to deal with all of this. Very hard. I’ve done everything right from BA to PhD and managed to outshine my peers every single step of the way. As such, I really can’t find a flaw or a missing element in my application. To make matters worse, my advisor recently commented to me that I may be best suited to start thinking about jobs outside academia. My confidence and self worth have completely plummeted. Every week I continue to see updates on the Wiki for VAP and PostDocs that I’ve put in for and my email account is empty.
@7:34 - that is really tough, and I'm really sorry to hear about your situation. Sometimes it all comes down to timing and luck. Hopefully your advisor is coming from a place of well-intended concern if this job cycle doesn't work out for you. It sounds like people take a genuine interest in your research and that you have real potential to make a contribution to the field! How do your research and teaching interact? Are their areas of your application or ways to expand your impact that you could work on? Sometimes it has nothing to do with others whom you deem unsatisfactory because you have no idea whether their training / research / interests / circumstances / networks happened to line up with the right committee at the right time. Good luck!!
@7:34, I am so, so sorry. I wonder if some jobs are afraid of you because you seem overqualified, or would outshine others in the department, and they're intimidated, but who knows. I hope something opens up for you soon. Do you believe in prayer? Appearances notwithstanding, all is in the hands of a wise, loving Providence. I believe that everything, absolutely everything, is subject to His control and power, even the foolish or unjust decisions of search committees. Maybe sometimes He wants us to lose, if only to conform us to Him in humility (as you mentioned). I sympathize, nay I empathize with your anger and sorrow.
If it's in your nature to lash out venomously at others when you feel slighted, there may be other negative aspects of your personality that come across to search committees (even in a cover letter) without your knowledge. If your advisors are as famous as you say (and have the kinds of personalities that often come along with that fame), they may be unable to detect it or they may not believe that it is a problem. Those of us at "embarrassing" schools (to quote other posters, or maybe you) are pretty good at seeing through any bullshit attempts to hide your true feelings about us. If you have truly learned a lesson in humility that has affected your inner being, you may do better next year. If not, take your advisor's tip and look elsewhere.
You may want to check that your materials are not a mismatch for the majority of the jobs. Advisors at top schools, and the students who have learned from them, tend to over-emphasize research and neglect teaching and service. This reflects the priorities of those who have tenure at tippy-top places, but, realistically, you're not going to get that kind of job: only a few in a generation ever do, and you've had the bad luck to be part of a generation that is truly screwed. So you and your letters need to show that you can inspire lethargic and under-prepared kids in gen-ed classes, and that you will do it with a smile on your face -- i.e. not getting your nose bent out of shape about how the undergraduates at your fancy alma mater were so much better. Because that's what 98% of the jobs are. You may want to see if you can get a (very good) friend at a teaching college to give your materials a once-over and see if there's something that is rubbing people the wrong way. Word to the wise: interfolio materials can be sent to any email address.
Thanks, to all of you for your kind words and suggestions. I agree that it’s likely in my best interest to redraft my cover letter a bit. Though, my venomousness didn’t rear its head until well after all applications were in, so I’m not too sure how much of a tint may be present in my cover letters, but it can’t hurt to reassess my entire portfolio and how I present myself.
I tend to think that what a major problem has been is that I fall into a very odd category, in that I’m from a top school, but not a TOP school. So for all of the jobs this year at phenomenal institutions, regardless of the work I’ve done and my promise, I’m not from within their “closed circuit.” And for all of the jobs at lower 2nd tier or lower schools (which comprise the other 80% of jobs this year), I’m seen as being too out of league and that I’d abandon ship once something else came along. So, in short, the TT jobs this year were st schools that were either far too high up or too far below on the totom poll for what fits me. My “seeet spot” would be a low 1st tier or upper 2nd tier institution... I guess.
I don’t know. I just want to hear back from the 8-12 VAPs already, but most are still accepting applications until well into May, which only further extends all of our misery and false senses of hope.
What if supposed market irrationality is just an excuse for your own shortcomings? You're already coming across as douchey here - why do you think it's any different in your cover letters, interviews, recommendations, etc.?
I had a tough year from another direction: lots of interviews, lots of campus visits, but at the end of the day no offer. It is truly discouraging and disheartening to feel you are doing things well (and to get interest and interviews showing that you're doing things well), but to see the offers going to others. Of course the instinct is to scan those others' CV's to see what they're doing and how they compare, and it is EXTREMELY frustrating to see a CV that seems less impressive than yours or not a good fit for the position as described. Bitterness and even venom are reasonable reactions, and I don't agree with 1:58 that 9:35 above is probably a "douche." It just sucks.
For what it's worth, I've had some friends on SC's describe the process to me and it sounds like these decisions are often fraught with their own version of venom. I've heard tales of name-calling, table-pounding, and the like. So many factors come into play, including the personalities of those in the room. I have tried to tell myself that the absence of offers this year doesn't necessarily reflect on me, but of course it feels like an indictment of you/your scholarship/your teaching and it's much worse when you get so close to the end. I don't know what else to say except that it sucks.
@12:43 you definitely come across as an asshole, so do review those application materials and try to tone it down a notch.
Sincerely, Working-class 1st generation college student who ate your lunch for a top TT job this cycle / works hard, wins allies, and doesn't make a scene / has a better CV [6 high-impact journal articles and counting, ya prick]
Wow, I can't decide which one of the two players in the above drama (3.22 or 12.43) sounds like a *worse* conversation partner. So much self-aggrandizement in all directions.
I don't know, 3:22. I don't mean this as an insult, but I think that everyone who has a been offered a job, from the Ivy PhDs to the Idaho PhDs, has just been lucky. At least in the last 5-10 years. Sincere congrats, @3:22, on all of the high impact publishing. But there's an equally plausible tragedy where you don't have a TT despite those great publications. Lots of awesome people from all kinds of programs, of all different races, genders, and whatever other identifications don't have jobs. And they sometimes have admirable publications, they have networks, they have people who want them to succeed and try to help, but what they don't have are permanent positions. But its because the SC that wants that candidate has not yet formed or will never form. There are just too many of us. Don't you have friends in the field who can't find good VAP positions, to say nothing of TTs? If all of the people that you think are smart and capable have jobs, you are leading a charmed life (and, if we have met, I hope you thought I was smart and capable).
Just my two cents here, but 12:43 doesn’t sound at all like an asshole. I mean, his past behavior is asshole behavior, for sure, but nothing that he’s saying here and now makes me think he’s an asshole.
3:22, however, sounds like a petulant child from start to finish. By the way, 3:22, thanks so much for coming on here and speaking as you did about your new T-T job in such condescending tone to all of us plebs. At least 12:43 (seemingly) has acknowledged his poor behavior and manners, meanwhile you’ve demonstrated a far worse level of dickishness
Novus homo 3:22 is to be congratulated, but it would be nice if he could avoid the Ciceronian self praise. As for Cato rejected for the consulship 12:43, I don't agree with the attacks on his character and personality, or the invitation for him to pyschoanalyze himself. Sometimes people have a really bad year or go through a really bad time, and if you went through the same thing, how do you know that you wouldn't lose it on occasion?
I know because I have become a well-socialized member of the human community. My soul, through study, growth, adversity, and fellowship, has become gentle in tragedy in the same way as it understands that victory and happiness are contingent and ephemeral. Because my morality includes at least the Golden Rule, I do not lash out, become venomous, "lose it", or engage in other childish nonconstructive behaviors when things don't go my way.
Try it, some day.
And then, sometimes, someone out of nowhere with actual people skills eats your lunch anyways.
Is it really this normal for so many VAPs to be popping up so late in the cycle? At this rate, many are still accepting applications until late May, which means that decisions won't go out until close to mid-June.
..This is my first rodeo, so I am genuinely asking here.
On the contrary, I am a complete asshole. You would hate me. But that still doesn't give me the right to lose it on others when things don't go my way.
@7:09, my general impression is that we are indeed seeing a few more (not a lot more) VAP positions drag on into the eve of the season, maybe because a few TT jobs came up later than is typical, and a few of those (and other) TT hires have dragged on longer than seems usual. There may still be a few more vacancies popping up after most of the dust settles, but that assumes a rather willing and efficient administration at a few places... If you feel particularly inspired, you may be able to find information of some sort on the FV archives from previous seasons.
I'll just throw this out there - it seems as if some of us are rather new at this whole process. People who have been at it a while have ALL had a really bad year or a really bad time, at some stage of this fun little game. People who struck it rich, landing a TT as ABD, cannot possibly comprehend much of what people are feeling around here. But someday other things may happen. Meanwhile, people who haven't landed anything in their first time around (as ABD or recently-minted PhDs) cannot possibly begin to know what it's all like for those who have been riding the merry-go-round for years. 1. We can still all be civil to each other. I cannot fathom what it must be like to be around people in real life who "talk" the way some of us do on this anonymous forum. 2. Those of us lucky enough to land permanent jobs where we may be advising undergraduates and graduate students need to do a much better job advising those people - and warning them about things to come, perhaps. 3. And yes, at the end of the day ANYONE who lands a permanent job in this field is lucky. You're not the first and best special snowflake who puts all other snowflakes to shame. Nor am I. You can buy more tickets to increase your odds of winning the lottery, but in the end it's still a lottery, and it may or may not be rigged in some way or other.
No kidding. 12:43 came here to apologize for his (?) actions on FV in light of deeper reflection. What's the point of chiming in and telling us all how you'd never do what 12:43 did ? I mean, 90% of us here don't behave like 12:43 did, and if ever someone is genuinely apologetic for past actions and takes the initiative to come forward and accept responsibility and be a better person for it, how is it constructive to then grandstand and say how you'd never behave like he did ?
aren't you, then, doing the very thing that you claim to not ever do:
"I do not lash out, become venomous, "lose it", or engage in other childish nonconstructive behaviors"
"ou can buy more tickets to increase your odds of winning the lottery, but in the end it's still a lottery, and it may or may not be rigged in some way or other."
...this is, perhaps, the best summation of CV filling-up, etc.. that we all endlessly chase while being pre-TT that I've ever heard.
On VAPs: It can be all over the place, although I would say this was weak and late VAP season. Late VAPs tend to be driven by folks leaving to take TT jobs (some just now finishing negotiation and being announced), as well as regular faculty announcing retirement and sabbatical plan. There is always the odd sex criminal identified and resigning in disgrace. These will tend to be the source of late breaking VAPs.
As a rule, the late the VAP, the more informal the hire process. A VAP announced in the fall may interview at the SC, and even have campus visits. Late jobs may only preform a perfunctory interview, often with a small group of candidates. Very late jobs might be decided with a phone call to through the good old boys (and girls) network.
Some places may also be rushing to cobble together jobs for favorite children that failed to get jobs (full discloser, my current job is a shady-welfare VAP). They may be required to advertise and interview, so beware of an output of fake jobs that go to a predetermined candidate.
I am terrified to even ask, but does anyone know anything about the status of the Joukowsky Postdoctoral Fellowship in Archaeology and the Ancient World ?
It's been 6-7 weeks since review was set to begin. Any info would be appreciated.
Do not know the status. But J. at Brown has always been a closed shop, and my guess is if you have to ask the status, that is a good sign you are not a finalist (I applied last year, and nothing but Black Hole). My guess is the candidate, or at least the short list, were known before the search was formally announced.
Note: That is fama.. I have no inside information, just observations of Joukowsky's M.O.
When I submitted my app for the Brown post-doc, I got an automated reply/acknowledgement that included this line: "The Search Committee will be in contact with finalists by late April 2018." So, I wouldn't give up hope just yet.
Inside scoop on Joukowsky: I know that the SC is scheduled to meet late this week/early next week. I was told that about a week or so ago by a colleague at Joukowsky. No decisions have been made, and the committee has yet to determine their finalists.
The million dollar question really is “how many?”
Some years they take in 1, some 2, some 4, they’ve even taken in as many as 6 postdocs in a single year. I think, I repeat I only *think* that if memory serves, one of the SC members told me it would be a 2-postdoc year this next cycle. But, if the SC really desires to do so, they can amend that number with rather little headache. One of the perks of being a deep-pocketed institute, which often benefits strong candidates during a year filled with many other strong candidates.
SC member here. 12:43, your comments on this forum have sometimes alluded in pretty specific terms to elements of your CV (# of this, ## of that), and so I have had a sense of who (I think) you are. Yes, it is true you have many achievements and great letters of recommendation. I did wonder if the specific medium you work on would interest our students (and would provide enough material for a plurality of courses). I also see in my notes about your file that I thought your cover letter needed to show more and tell less (there was a lot about your accolades--I wanted more of the meat of your academic arguments). Hope that helps.
I appreciate your comments and insight; I’ll be sure to revisit and edit my cover letter with your thoughts in mind. It’s been a particularly difficult year for Late Antique/Early Byzantine studies (which I don’t mind sharing is my speciality so that 10:06 can have a batter idea of who I am, while I can still remain anonymous to FV), as very few TT positions were posted this year; 2 in fact for the US. A few other TT jobs were out that, while not “Late Antique” specific, offered a broader umbrella of specificity in their ads.
It doesn’t seem as if too many LA jobs will be around in the near future either; along with adjusting my cover letter to emphasize my accolades less, it would probably be best to also stress more how LA studies can bridge Classics and History Depts, which is particular important in an increasingly interdisciplinary world.
@10:51. History's dying faster than classics: tailor your letters to the latter, where there are -- surprisingly? -- more available jobs. A number of folks who got classics gigs this year were LA people, but is that a trend? Being able to teach a wider range of Greek lit + both traditional and more unusual archaeology/culture studies courses should be a 'win' for you. Be vocally aware of folks who may also do Byzantine from Art History / Relig Studies or other departments in your apps - speak to a local audience! And sure, besides interdisciplinarity, press the relevance of Late Antiquity as we watch our current world system break down: write up a good syllabus for the state of empire / diversity / class / gender / ethnicity in the late ancient world: we've got lots of great primary sources and archaeology that folks working on earlier periods wish they had!
I am not the late antiquity scholar who has recently been posting, but a different one. If you could collectively stop constantly hating on Late Antiquity as a subfield that would be superb.
Wow, I forget to visit the wiki in three days, and all hell breaks loose. Trying to decide if someone who got a TT offer going "Nah nah na-na-na" while blowing raspberries at the rest of us is better or worse than the NAMBLA conversation that preceded it by a few days.
I’m also a LA scholar, and I completely understand your frustration with this year’s job cycle. As some may be aware, one of the two jobs for our field this year (SUNY-Stony Brook) saw the SC Chair accidentally send an email to all of the job applicants as CC not BCC, thereby providing us all with a full list of names, email addresses, and current institutions for all 216 candidates that were not chosen to be interviewed. It was an additional slap in the face to us all.
I don’t know for sure who you are, 12:43, but what I can say is that there were 2-3 folks that I know of who fit your rather detailed self-description, and for what it’s worth, seeing that you were also passed over at Stony Brook made me feel less awful in the sense that if your application was not pursued then how could I be so upset if I, too, was passed on?
I know it sounds kind of awful to say that, but I guess what I’m also saying is that I can 100% understand your anger at this year’s process.
@12:43, thought I'd chime in on the Late Antique discussion as well. From your earlier post at 7:34, it looks like you were ABD when you began this cycle. Echoing what previous posters have said, I can say that your experience on the market this year is definitely par for the course. It takes years and years.
Also, a small clarification: the Stony Brook "late antique or medieval history" position was not really a job "for our field", as that position was advertised as "ca. 200 -1400 CE", which covers a whole lot more than even the most generous understanding of "The Long Late Antiquity" might allow for.
I am also a LA scholar, but I have found the opposite experience and that my speciality is more in-demand than I expected it would be. Each job that I progressed in was especially interested in broadening their repertoire and I think I was competitive because of my speciality, not in spite of it.
That being said, I think if you do LA, you must expect to also be a generalist in this job market. Very few schools have the funds/interest to hire a dedicated LA scholar, and you must necessarily also be comfortable potentially teaching about things from 800 BCE through Byzantine and Medieval. It's the way it goes.
Ancient historian here who (foolishly) put in for the Stony Brook job. The SC Chair there is a medievalist and focuses on later/high MA. So, with that in mind I’d tend to interpret their posting as being far more tilted towards LA than anything else. Yes, they cast a broad net but so too does (literally) every Classics dept job (“ability to teach Latin and Greek at all levels”) even if they’re hiring a historian or achaeologist.
@8:40 I totally get where you're coming from, about why one might have thought Stony Brook would have been "far more tilted towards LA", but I stand by what I wrote earlier (8:08). The three job talks (as far as I know) were on late medieval slave trade, Angevin Italy, and Nasrid Granada. Not a whole lot of Late Antique there at all.
Also an LA person, here. And I think 8:25 is right, for the most part. I don't know about the exact timeline that they have proposed, but I think generalist LA scholars are in an OK position right now. As downsizing continues, too, generalists will become more valuable rather than less (?). I don't think we're better or worse off than anyone else, but, I think we can certainly compete in the marketplace of ideas and and academic specializations.
Does anyone else see the irony in the orderly conversation Byzantinists are having about how their long, dedicated, and careful training in a labyrinthine system of qualifications and examinations and careful scheming SHOULD HAVE arranged acolytes according to merit in a hierarchical system for employment in a crucial social institution?
I applied for Concordia, too, but as has been said here before, the likelihood is that no non-Canadian will be offered a VAP in Canada. It’s too much bullshit for them to go through just to hire a 1-yr guy.
Given that you were so able to identify 12:43, who then further identified himself as a Late Antique specialist, I wanted to ask about a point that you made about their being a Late Antique specialist. In particular, you stated that you "did wonder if the specific medium you work on would interest our students (and would provide enough material for a plurality of courses)."
As a fellow LA scholar I want to know if the problem with our field, from a broader Classicist perception that is, is that our "medium" (which is an odd phrasing) of LA/Byz more so that A) undergrads will avoid unfamiliar course offerings of LA and favor those of (more familiar) Alexander and Augustus, or that B) undergrads would never warm up to LA stuff, even if provided with adequate broad survey courses that outline it before exposure to dedicated courses?
...Secondly, is it typical for SC members to keep notes about every candidate as you did for 12:43, or was it more that 12:43 was an 'almost' shortlisted candidate?
I would doubt that the (alleged) SC member used "medium" to mean "field." I would guess, rather, that they meant "medium": epistolography, portraiture, something like that. But "LA" and Byz are two totally different things from a Classicist's perspective. Hellenic Studies is (all-too-)slowly gaining steam, but a grand total of about three NA Classics departments have someone who works on Byzantine things. By contrast, LA (especially understood widely) is a normal part of medium-to-large research departments. Just like any specialty, you should expect that you will be more successful if you can participate widely in the department's teaching--just like Homerists don't just teach four Homer courses a year.
Yes, Amherst held campus visits for the 1-2 year VAP and made an offer to their first choice candidate. I haven’t heard for sure whether it was accepted or not, but I would guess so as campus visits were several weeks ago.
This is SC member @ 10:06 responding to 2:50 PM. As to your first question, see 3:34 PM's answer (which is correct). Our ad didn't mention period, but we were very interested in later periods and interviewed candidates with work across multiple eras.
Is it common to keep notes in a big spreadsheet like I did? Probably not, but I wanted to ensure that I gave each application a fair viewing and could participate in our committee's discussion without inadvertently mixing up candidates etc. etc.
I thought we decided awhile ago that Late Antique/Byzantine/Whatever is just fancy terminology for ugly, dogmatic, mind-numbing trash that real Classicists don't want to study? Nobody cares about images of Angry Jesus or Dead-Eyed Mary or the machinations of people like Constantine, Justinian, or Theodosius and other assorted non-entities.
What are thoughts about applying for VAP jobs in the UK as an American?
I understand that it is not always feasible for those of us who have families with children, etc.. so that's not really what I mean by my question, but instead the following concerns:
1.) Is the fact that 99% of awarded VAP jobs in the UK are to OxBridge PhDs more a reflection of the lack of US PhDs applying or instead a reflection of the (perceived) superiority and/or familiarity with UK higher education practices that most US folks are not accustomed to ?
2.) How would taking a VAP job in the UK affect perception of your application for next season to US schools? I understand that every SC is different, but generally speaking, is your gut saying that it be a positive, negative, or neutral element if your portfolio is to be reviewed by a US school looking at a candidate currently VAP-ing at a UK school?
Any input and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
SC member @ 10:06 / 4:55 to 9:31PM: I wish I had some good general advice, but every institution is so different. That's one of the major fallacies of the job market--that there are rules that can be followed and that all schools have something in common. Instead, each school is a very idiosyncratic group of individuals, responding in their own ways to national trends and internal needs. Things that would work in an application for a job at my institution would backfire elsewhere. That's why the job market is frustratingly like dating.
Another SC member: 9:18 is absolutely right. Even within an SC, individual members may read particular elements of dossiers completely differently. Someone up above said it: anyone who has been hired in the past ten years has been profoundly lucky, no matter how good their CV is. Nobody should be taunting the unsuccessful, as has also happened on this board. There but for the grace of tuche....
What kind of institution are you currently at? An R1, SLAC, Ivy, etc..
Also, in your most recent SC duty, are there any insights you can share about what your Dept was looking for, both broadly (e.g., Latin Philologist; Greek Archaeology) and what the SC was looking for at a narrower level in their determination of finalists (e.g., research promise; teaching experience; a 4-5 year VAP veteran, etc..)
My advisor once told me about a rather nasty fight that happened between SC members regarding a Roman Archaeology search at a top-10. The issue was that 3/5 members all had their mind set on selecting a candidate who specializes in some form of non-traditional Roman archaeology (a focuses on Mauritania or the Balkans) while 2/5 felt that there is no problem in looking closer at Roman Archaeologists whose research focuses on, you know, Rome or even Italy.
The 3/5 argued that Italian/Urban Roman archaeology is stale, overdone, and pointless, and that fringe sites and regions offer new opportunities. The 2/5 argued that the TT hire would be responsible for teaching the undergrad Roman Arch. survey courses, and that taking on an "oddball" focus hire would make it difficult to interest classics undergrads (an already diminishing lot).
It seems to be a lot of desiring "new and exciting" over what is seen as 20th century topics. There are merits to both arguments, of course, but that's a different discussion. What's germane here is that SC members often go into a hiring process with deep prejudices towards various fields and mediums, and some may find one's research obscurity a refreshing addition to the field, while others may see it as an unknown and untried entity.
I would imagine that one's generation comes into play here too. For what it's worth, the 3/5 were all younger Profs, the 2/5 were all close to 70.
@9:09 the problem with trying for a UK VAP is not going to be in your familiarity with the system or that you don't have an Oxbridge PhD. It's going to be that they don't want to sponsor you for a visa for one year. This might be even more true now that the policies of the UK government are turning more and more nativist, even in higher education.
As an American with a UK PhD, I can tell you that I generally didn't even bother applying for UK jobs when I was finishing,and now that I'm back in the US I don't see myself returning.
It's certainly not unheard of for non-UK PhDs to hold a UK VAP, though obviously the faculties/departments are interested in someone who can teach their curriculum (they also aren't as dominated by Oxbridge grads as your post suggests, unless you're thinking of temporary jobs in Oxford and Cambridge, which are often held by someone with a doctorate from the institution; even there, however, there are plenty of people from elsewhere in the UK as well). Most UK institutions teach through a mixture of lectures and classes/seminars, so aren't so very far from a US model (as I understand it), though most students are doing a degree in a particular subject (i.e. they have already decided that they are doing a history/classics/philosophy degree) and the course content may be a bit more specialised than it would be for comparable undergrad teaching in the US.
One thing to keep in mind is that the salary for UK VAPs (what we'd call temporary teaching jobs or something similar) can fall below the threshold for visa sponsorship. I think you'd be on a Tier 2 visa (https://www.gov.uk/tier-2-general/eligibility) which normally has a salary threshold of c. £30,000. Some temp jobs (covering for someone with Leverhulme major research leave for example) will be well above this (see this one at St Andrew's for instance: https://www.vacancies.st-andrews.ac.uk/Vacancies/W/6876/0/181023/889/lecturer-in-ancient-history-ref-ac1869rxas). Others won't.
Probably best to write to the department asking if they'd be willing to sponsor you for a visa (if the advertisement doesn't say already).
The UK VAP market is even more saturated with applicants than this one. Nearly every school with a Classics department produces PhDs, plus they are (at the moment, i.e. pre-Brexit) very much open to hiring talented people from within the EU - lots of Germans, Greeks, and Italians (and others) have been appointed to all sorts of research and teaching posts. However, a good number of senior posts are held by Americans if that's encouraging. I think it might not be worth it for a one year position, but could be for a multi-year VAP ...
Looking back through 10 years of the Wiki, in all instances of people having a similar VAP at St. Andrews their PhD is from OxBridge. Additionally, all TT jobs in the wiki that St.Andrews filled were filled with OxBridge folks.
...So, even though St.Andrews *may say* that they will sponsor US Visas (you'd have to email the Dept. Chair, as their ad mentions nothing of Visas), they have a pretty solid track record of focusing attention on OxBridge grads. Can't say that I blame them, but as an American looking across the pond for a 1-year job I'd recommend my fellow Yankees to not waste their time.
With regards to UK jobs, there are some that are worth Americans putting in for, especially multi-year positions.
For instance, the University of Oxford and the Ashmolean Museum have a 3-yr post for an assistant curator/lecturer in Classical Archaeology. Since many folks here have not heard of this position (which closes soon), here's the ad below (I've also placed it in the Wiki):
If you're referring to UIC, I'm not surprised. That department once had a pretty stellar lineup of faculty, but over the years they've either gone elsewhere, retired, or died and the department has gone into decline. The Latin position is to fill the gap left by a faculty member who passed away in August. The people with power there are 1) a very, very nutty but influential Bronze Age scholar with a famous last name 2) an archaeologist who thinks very highly of themselves and is in general an unpleasant person.
It would be helpful if someone would go through the wiki and do the same analysis 3:47 PM did for all UK positions. I suspect the results would be the same as for St. Andrews: while Americans without prior connections to there are not technically disqualified, they effectively are. Not so for senior positions, of course.
RE: 1:39 - it's apparently a visa status issue, UIC didn't want to go through the hassle/cost of getting the candidate a work visa. But of course they must have all sorts of faculty who require work visas, so it seems completely bizarre and also reflects terribly on the department and university.
RE: UI Job offered on 4.4 to a European scholar with American Ph.D.H1B visa stipulation agreed by the institution. 4.11 Syllabi and courses submitted to UI classics by said scholar 4.21 "We're sorry. The sponsorship exceeds our budget. We can't hire you. Bye."
So I assume the Eidolon editorial board whined a little too loudly that their snowflake sensibilities were offended, and so FV dies so they can corner the classics blog market?
I'd be extremely grateful if anyone could shed some light on a problem I'm wrestling with: I'm working on an individual SCS abstract on a topic that is essentially an expansion of a small portion of an article I have forthcoming (which will be in print before SCS in San Diego). My reasoning for pursuing this topic as an SCS abstract is that a) I would be examining the topic in greater depth in the paper than in the article and b) it's an idea I'm interested in getting feedback on at SCS since it will likely turn into an important section of the book project I'm working on. That said, is it unethical to "reuse" an idea in this manner in an SCS paper? Is there perhaps an ethical spectrum of "reuse," and if so, how does one determine where one's individual case falls on that spectrum?
welcome to the club. it is very, very common to present a topic at a conference that is, to varying degrees, a portion of a larger project or paper. Many people happen to present the same paper at multiple conferences; that's sort of the purpose of feedback for conferences, in that you can get feedback to improve your research.
to be clear, however, I'm not saying that you want to be one of those folks who presents the paper 'x' at 4 different conferences under 4 different titles, but to present a smaller portion of a work up for publication is 100% fine and is encouraged by all good advisors, I'd imagine.
Indeed, I think there is nothing wrong presenting an article that is either in press or even recently published.
First, many people will attend a 20 minute talk who might benefit from your conclusions but will not bother to take the hour or so to slog through an article.
Secondly, the presentation may be attended by people interested in your topic, and alerting them to your article is valuable publicity for you. I am much more likely to read and cite articles where I have seen a talk by the presenter. Remember, your goal is not just to bury this in a journal, but to have people read and cite it.
Finally, I think the fact that the project is on a publication trajectory absolves you of any worries that you are conference shopping. What is poor practice is when professors eat up conference funding presenting on topics they never plan to publish, and then use that to justify "continued scholarly engagement." But this is something you have pushed through peer review. You should have no qualms presenting at the SCS.
12:56 here; thanks so much for all the very helpful advice! Just one more question: should I cite myself in the SCS abstract? It seems that it would make sense to cite myself (name, forthcoming 2018) once in the literature review at the beginning of the abstract, but is it essentially plagiarism not to cite my forthcoming article at every point in the rest of the abstract in which I mention something I say in that article? I'm worried that doing so would out me as the author of the abstract and thus compromise the anonymity of the SCS review process.
4:00, You can go either way on whether to cite yourself. If you're citing forthcoming work the committee will be too smart not to realize there is a very good chance that you are the abstract's author as well, but if you follow the guidelines and treat yourself as some other scholar (i.e., 3rd-person) you are doing nothing wrong. However, unless it is clear to them that this is NOT a problem, they might suspect that you are giving a paper that says nothing not already in the forthcoming article, and they might reject it on that suspicion alone. So if citing yourself, definitely make clear that you are building on that mysterious scholar's work.
I don't know if the UIC victim is a visitor to FV, but this does seem like a violation of AAUP standards, and it's at least worth looking into whether it violates contract law in Illinois.
I would love to see at least the threat of a lawsuit being made, since if UIC has external counsel it would cost them more in lawyer fees than the visa fees would have cost.
If it were me, there is simply no way I would not consult a lawyer, even if the result were learning that I had not been legally wronged.
I believe the SCS explicitly requests that you treat yourself as a third person in order to prevent identification. If the article is just forthcoming and not yet published, I would not list it. It will just identify you, because seriously, how many other people know that article is forthcoming? People regularly give SCS papers that overlap with published or soon-to-be published work: the deadline for an SCS abstract is so far removed from the actual delivery of the talk -- and publishing speeds are so variable -- that there's no way to control that, and nobody expects you to.
All the Berkeley hires are old news. But, yeah, they definitely have the most representation this year for jobs. These things are cyclical, and it very well may be a good number of years until they have have such a showing as they did this year.
There were quite a few good schools that didn’t see their grads get any (reported) jobs: Yale and Cornell most notable. And quite a few top schools that only had 1 hire: UNC-CH, Duke, Columbia (thought only a VAP).
This is my first year on the market with PhD in hand, but I don’t think that the results we have thus far are that shocking. Pretty expected stuff. 95% of the jobs went to top-12 folks. No ‘upsets” really.
About 40% of the jobs out there are still yet to conclude and/or post *who* got them, but I doubt we’ll see much variation from the top-12 folks getting 95%+ of the jobs.
I, for one (a top-5 guy), am still empty handed. I’ve had 4 T-T interviews and a VAP interview, by no visits or job offers. It’s a grisly year to be one’s first year, but I’m hopeful that there’s still time for us all to land something.
Good luck to all of you still slugging away out there!
Re: UIC situation European scholar here - I've just accepted a two year position in the US, and they are sponsoring me for J1, which is much easier and cheaper than H1B. Not sure if this is helpful (one would hope the international office at UIC is aware of this option), but you never know...
@2:42 re: J1, beware that the catch with a J1 is that once your J1 runs out you are obligated to return to your country and cannot take up work on a different visa for 2 years without going through a nightmarish set of hoops. This means you are likely to not be able to take another position after this one. I would advise you look into this very carefully before going ahead with the J1.
UIC is a large, high-output research university in one of the country's largest cities--its faculty has more than a few foreigners. This smells more like departmental incompetence than anything else, as it seems to me whatever administrative office that has to oversee this type of hire would be well aware of the process and costs involved.
A bad year for most public universities: zero placements listed so far in total for UNC, UIUC, UVA, UT Austin, FSU, Wisconsin, Ohio.... all put together. Some will eventually turn up, sure, but it is pretty amazing that at this point in the year, none have.
Well, I see 1 for UNC (at UNC-G) and 1 for Wisconsin (at Monmouth). I've also heard something about an Ohio State hire at Penn State, but all hearsay. But that doesn't negate your point by any means - it only goes some very small way towards mitigating it. It's definitely something to worry about for the viability of those programs going forward.
Of course, depending on whichever schmuck of the evening is around, this outcome could be the result of the laziness and dullness of public school grad students or, alternately, because of some nefarious old-(gender)'s 'top-10' (however-defined) network in action - Cincinnati excluded, of course, unless people are willing to toss out a Cornell or two to let in this feisty, dirty-playing contender.
Here's looking forward to never having to read any of the above-mentioned garbagio debates in this forum again.
UNC has one (reported) T-T job, but there also are at least 2 others that I know of yet to be added to the Wiki. Regarding relatively low Public turnout, Michigan has not (thus far) reported any T-T placements this year.
This year's job market is bad for everyone, but in no way does it seem to suggest the inviability of public programs. As posted (not rumors of what will post), not only did Berkeley have a very strong year, but also jobs to products of UCLA, Washington, UNC, Cincinnati, Iowa, UT Austin, Wisconsin, CUNY and Michigan. Now some of these folks had been on the market for years, and some were moving from other TT jobs, but still suggests that public programs play an important role in the ecosystem of the field.
On average, it seems as though people who got TT jobs this year were floating around for about 4 years, with obvious outliers at each end. Does that seem right to everyone? This could be a helpful figure to know, if roughly. How many years post-Ph.D. until TT job?
^ i don't understand why you think coming up with an "average" number of years on market is useful... There's no rhyme or reason to the job market and coming up with an "average" only gives the false impression to future applicants that that's how it should work. Anyway, I don't even think we have enough data for any given average to be worth anything...
Many hires seem to be 2-4 years out. But some caution in "it takes four-five years to get a job." Many people drop out of the field altogether after four-five years, as they can no longer bear the financial depredations and moral degradations of VAP life. So the moral may be less," hang on, it will take four years" and instead "its not worth wasting more than four years to get a TT job."
Also, as has been endlessly pointed out, it is not like this is a line to get on the bus. You can be four years out, with a long CV, and get beat out by a golden ABD with zero publications. Sometimes that golden ABD will indeed be a better fit for the department than you would be, sometimes not. But suffice it to say this is not a field that rewards dues paying.
@8:47 am You don't have to scroll down the wiki very far to see that Michigan does have a T-T placement this year. Still a low turnout for public university programs, though...
Re: the ratio of graduates from public to private universities getting positions. I went through and counted T-T offers *currently listed* (4/24 @~12:30am est) on the wiki, and came up with the following figures:
* Public universities (including UK and Canada): 19 * Private universities (including UK and Canada): 17
Keep in mind that many entries (maybe half?) still do not include details of who accepted a job. Nevertheless, the ratio of public to private is about even right now. Contra what others have said, public universities are doing just as well (or, for glass half empty types, just as poorly) in the job market.
There are only five private universities in the UK, none of which award a PhD in Classics (Buckingham, BPP, Regent's, Arden, and University of Law). All other UK universities (including Oxford and Cambridge) are public, so I'm curious which UK institutions you included among your total of 17 private.
I actually didn't know that Oxford and Cambridge were "public"; excuse my ignorance. The UK system is a black box to me. Though, from what I understand, the UK notion of "public" is rather different from that in the States. Given the water they draw and the absurd financial cost, OxBridge seems more equivalent to our Ivy system, but feel free to tip those figures into the other column if you'd prefer.
Yeah—so bizarre that someone wouldn't know the ins and outs of a foreign country thousands of miles away that offers minimal professional opportunities, and those only to a narrow band of interests. Next time I meet a UK Ph.D. I'll be sure to quiz them about the history of US land-grant universities—can't recite the Morrill Acts? Then get bent, pal!
Thank you @5:35PM for your concern - you are quite right that this is a risk, I've had a J1 before that came with a two year residency requirement. The International office in question has assured me that the chances of that happening now are low, bc I don't meet any of the standard conditions for applying the 2-year residency rule. Also H1B is not an option, because of the crazy tight timeline for this particular position. So, crossing fingers! My visa interview is next week...
Familiarity with how the UK works is part of upper-middle to upper-class US cultural performance. Classics as a FAKE NEWS discipline values this kind of thing as a proxy for real things like scholarship or erudition in relevant areas. Might want to brush up on oenology too.
I submit Eidolon write an article on (performed) class in Classics. Performance of class includes but is not limited to: food and drink preferences, politics (anti-MAGA), dress, familiarity with foreign cultures (preferably British and French - Italy is interesting but full of natives), regional (NE and Silicon Valley) and school (private 2ndary school, SLAC/ivy) preferences.
@12:35 that UT Austin NYU job winner is not a PhD student... he's been out for many years and had a TT job already; a monograph; several prestigious fellowships, etc. He was a finalist at several top places (UCLA, UPenn). So really it's not got much to do with UT Austin (at least now; maybe when he got his first job).
What's up with the jobs that have been red for weeks as "offered" but aren't accepted yet? ISAW, Chicago, Michigan... Are these people really still negotiating?
"Familiarity with how the UK works is part of upper-middle to upper-class US cultural performance."
Like learning a second language (french, ooh) or trying to understand how other people live, think, behave, etc.? I guess to fix the problem we should all try to be even more insular instead of being aware of how our chosen profession looks and works in different countries. Brilliant. I love how we can turn every little thing into class warfare and righteous indignation.
@6:25... i wonder if it's because ann arbor is a midwestern college town. As someone who's been out east for the last 10 years (but knows has roots in the midwest), i honestly would have mixed feelings about accepting a longterm offer from michigan if I had something else on my plate...
4:20pm says "Performance of class includes... regional (NE and Silicon Valley)... preferences."
And then a case in point at 7:00: "As someone who's been out east for the last 10 years (but knows has [sic] roots in the midwest), i honestly would have mixed feelings about accepting a longterm offer from michigan if I had something else on my plate..."
While on the topic of locations... Chicago vs Baltimore? Chicago itself seems a more vibrant place but it's so landlocked. Baltimore, though perhaps less desirable, is an hour from DC and an hour from Philly...
I like Baltimore, but whenever you have to characterize a place as being "only x amount of time from city x," then that already indicates that the other places nearby are better. Chicago, on the other hand, has literally everything you could want in terms of food, culture, etc. It's about as big as I can stomach large cities, anything bigger is just diminishing returns.
@ 5:51 PM
"Familiarity with how the UK works is part of upper-middle to upper-class US cultural performance."
Like learning a second language (french, ooh) or trying to understand how other people live, think, behave, etc.? I guess to fix the problem we should all try to be even more insular instead of being aware of how our chosen profession looks and works in different countries. Brilliant. I love how we can turn every little thing into class warfare and righteous indignation."
The vast majority of people in Classics have not earned their doctorate from a British school and will never teach in one, so it is not surprising that most are not apprised of the ins-and-outs of the UK university system. Acting shocked that people don't know the peculiarities and equating the possession of such knowledge to knowing a foreign language or being worldly or something is flat-out stupid. I say this as someone who knows people who did go to Oxford who literally never shut up about the fact that they went to Oxford.
"Chicago murder rate is record setting - 4,331 shooting victims with 762 murders in 2016. If Mayor can't do it he must ask for Federal help!"
I know (I hope) that you're being facetious but the "Chicago is a flaming hellscape where you walk out the door and get shot" narrative is only parroted by ignorant rubes. The violence in Chicago is concentrated in a handful of neighborhoods and is an outgrowth of the increasing desolation of those neighborhoods thanks to segregation, lack of development, and sub-par public schools. The situation existed before the current mayor, shitbag Rahm Emanuel ever set foot in office, but he's done jack squat to fix anything. Chicago has a long history of shitty politicians.
may I add some actual MCGA points in place of the "MCGA!" troll who seems to think that MCGA people are a bunch of Ivy League white men in tweed jackets saying "Good show!" (that was a funny line though, I commend you for that, "MCGA!" troll):
-American job market for the Americans (Trudeau's Canada has protectionist measures, so why can't we?)
-British job market for the British, Italians, Germans, and if they can stand them, the French.
Point number 1 would benefit all American born job candidates, including POC. People have pointed out, for example, how affirmative action for POC tends to help non-American born POC but not the actual African Americans whom we are trying to make it up to for that whole slavery thing.
4,546 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 3401 – 3600 of 4546 Newer› Newest»Thanks for the UCLA links. Don't know how I was unaware of that...
I see the Servii deleted my comment wherein I enumerated multiple known perverts and predators in Classics. I'm not sure why this is, since in my estimation people deserve to know the sort of deviants who exist within our ranks. I didn't name names either, not that this matters since the behavior of these individuals, in my estimation, eliminates any merit for anonymity.
Perverts and Byzantinists are eating our lunch!!
One of the deviants was both a pervert AND a Byzantinist, so they were doing double-duty at eating lunches.
The Servii are right. People's lives are being shattered and destroyed by a mere allegation. Some are true and some are false. Some are old and some are new. There is no recovery for someone falsely accused - life and career are gone. Is there no such thing any longer as due process?
Ummm...several of the people I mentioned in the deleted post were convicted and sent to jail. Or in the case of the one who offed himself was scheduled to be sent to jail. They already had their due process, so I'm unsure what you're talking about in terms of false accusations. The others are well-known for their predilections even if they haven't been convicted of anything yet.
Since many if not all of the deleted cases all were reported on by the public press, I don't understand which part of the FV rules prevents the public details of those cases to be discussed? They're not junior, these aren't insinuations, it's not attacking their credentials...? Maybe the Servii can explain that particular detail? Thx.
I agree that if something makes the news, and especially if it reaches the stage of conviction or firing, it should be fair game?
Servius here: We haven’t been deleting links to news stories or accusations that have been dealt with in the court system — we deleted one post because it contained accusations that (to our knowledge) haven’t been adjudicated in a formal public way, and that were only ‘anonymous’ in the most superficial sense. This is the standard we have articulated: "The others are well-known for their predilections even if they haven't been convicted of anything yet" is not sufficient for this space.
I'm with Servius on this one. When someone's actions make the news, that's fair game, as it should be. When someone expresses an opinion but hasn't been proven to engage in any wrongdoing, that's crossing the line. We should certainly scrutinize people that we feel are violating a code of ethics or the law or are likely to do so, but until that happens, ad hominem attacks are just rumor-mongering. That's how our legal system works too. It doesn't mean we can't discuss those members of the field and what we have heard about them, but a public forum is not the proper venue for those conversations.
OK, the only real way to test the apparent inconsistencies in what Servius allows is by A/B testing. Let's see if this gets censored:
"Thomas Hubbard, Classicist, has published a book in favor of Greek boy-love with NAMBLA."
If deleted, we will modify the statement and re-post it until we get the truth in a form Servius is comfortable with.
'Twas with NAMBLA that the scholar Thomas Hubbard (Classics, UT Austin - Hook 'Em Horns!) published a book in favor of Greek boy-love.
Consider the following thought-experiment: imagine that a scholar had written in favor of racial separatism and had published a volume with Richard Spencer's organization. Would ANYONE be deleting references to this? Would Eidolon be waging (secular, intersectional) jihad against such a scholar?
Eidolon doesn't wage "jihad" -- it posts long, sometimes meandering pieces that take too long to get through. Jihad requires the quick flash of the sword as a head flies up into the air and then falls to the sand.
Added a post to wiki for a permanent lectureship in Greek archaeology at Edinburgh, deadline mid-May. They seem to have a good record of hiring internationally, including a few U.S. faculty.
I can see Donna Zuckerberg and the Eidolon gang imagining themselves as rabid Jihadis, ready to slice the dicks off the proverbial Herms of the white supremacy, sexism, and misogyny that they see everywhere in Classics. In reality, though, they're not nearly as exciting.
^^^PURE GENIUS...This is the kind of Parrhesia FV needs more of, while the microtraumatized mice of classics go burrow in their trigger warning holes
...seeing all this a bit late, but is it really the case that the Servii are using their abilities as moderators to protect the identity of a well-known serial abuser, harasser and pedophile? And even going above and beyond protecting his identity--I saw the initial post, now deleted, and it did not name names, give institutional affiliation, use initials, or say anything other than that this person had given a talk at CAMWS. And that's now worthy of censorship? Clearly the current Servii are right that they're not the people to do this job.
@1:46: agree: if people want censorship, they can read Eidolon or the Orwellian statements put out by the SCS under pressure from Eidolon. Sadly that may be all that's left after FV is entombed.
@12:28: agree, they're comically banal and excessively predictable as they continuously engage in unintended self-parody. But it's a way of virtue signalling and of building one's credentials for that next Classics job ad that requires a diversity-conscious candidate with a reliable record of exhibiting the various psychoses of our time, er I mean heroically battling oppression.
While we're on the subject of diverse-conscious job candidates. I'm a woman of color and had a couple of interviews this year where I was asked how I could help diversify the field. I don't know why, but I felt a bit peeved... as if I haven't dealt with enough!... like, how is it my fucking burden to shoulder? Am I wrong to feel this??
5:23: I'm pretty sure that that is a stock question asked of all candidates by some SCs. It's sometimes required by a university's HR that the question be asked. I was asked it several times, and friends that interviewed for the same jobs (including a female POC, a gay white guy, and a straight white guy) all got asked it as well. I'm not a POC, but I can understand why you would be peeved, but I suspect it wasn't directed at you in particular.
@5:23,
I'm a male POC and I sort of get where you're coming from but I can see the upside too. While that's probably, as 5:36 pointed out, a stock question that gets asked, I do think that considering how few POC there are in the field that in some ways we're better equipped than our non-POC peers to foster increased diversity. The first thing that jumps to mind is representation and mentoring. People have pondered here why there as so few POC who major in Classics and the humanities but may just take a class or two, I think representation has something to do with it. Seeing somebody who looks like you at the front of the class (or who just isn't white) can make a huge difference, and that can translate to mentoring and the like. Just my two cents.
@6:20,
I see your point but then... I am honestly, I am actually not sure I want to drag a POC into a dying, impoverished field that will probably always be dominated by white men.
7:33 again: sorry for typo:
I am honestly not sure*...
7:33. Won't the attitude you put forward there make sure that it stays dominated by white men?
So, I applied for a postdoc that closed for applications 6 weeks ago. Still no reply. Is it suicidal to reach out to the SC Chair, who I’ve already been in contact with prior to applying (and who strongly encouraged me to apply) about the status?
It’s late April, and I really need to know if I have to accept an extension as a current VAP for another year where I am (they’re pressuring me to let them know).
...advice?
If your current employer gives you a deadline (or you think that there is a de facto deadline), just email the chair and explain your deadline and ask whether you'll know either way by then.
1:46 here,
The Dept posted the VAP job last week, but told me to tell them ASAP if I’ll still be here. It’s a soft deadline and I’d really hate to tell my current school that I’ll be here, just to save a spot for myself and torpedo anyone else’s chance only to then inform them that I’ll be leaving after all. ...to make matters worse (from a certain perspective), I am a finalist for a few recently-posted TTs, which only further complicates this whole mess.
Given my luck, I’ll be the nice guy and let my current school know that I don’t know.. lose my spot here, and get passed on for the PostDoc and the sitting TTs. ... :/
OK, so email the post-doc now to see what the status is - post-docs and VAPs are roughly comparable kinds of animals.
If you hear that you're not a finalist for the post-doc (or they say - 'we can't tell you'), I'd tell your home institution you would like to stay. You have no good reason to think the post-doc will work out for you. Maybe the post-doc will say 'call us,' and you'll find out you can expect an offer, in which case you can start to push for a real offer in order to be able to say 'no' definitively to your home institution.
The TT jobs are another matter. You can't rush those searches, so just keep going and if one works out, ditch the VAP. They will understand. They will scramble and find someone.
-anonymous FV deplorable, currently VAP-ing and adjuncting next year.
@1:46. I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to email those TT SCs to see if you have made the shortlist. You can't demand it, but you can explain your situation and say that "any further information they can provide about the timeline" would be very helpful and that you would be grateful for it.
If you are strongly encouraged to apply, there is nothing wrong with a polite email asking for an update on the search. You already have some relationship with the SC member, and they should understand that you have your own deadlines. Indeed, it is in their interest not to have the search go on.
Wait, new T-T jobs? Who's still left and still interviewing at this point?
@ 8:22,
Quite a few new T-T jobs appeared about 3 weeks ago. They've all already contacted for interviews.
Ashland University, Florida Southern College, and another that I can't remember off the top of my head that I didn't apply to. Plus there was the (rather recent) Mississippi State job.
Some true trous de merde!
^^^ The Ashland and Florida Southern jobs are completely out of the question for Classics folks, though. Both jobs require the training to teach Medieval history, and the FSC job also wants an historian who can teach modern history survey courses (e.g., history of the holocaust; modern Middle East).
I've interviewed for both, and they both want a broadly trained "historian" who has experience in teaching a wide breadth of history courses.
...This likely explains why quite a few Classics folks here not aware of the jobs.
The third new job was in the UK.. I don't remember what institution either, but I have zero interest in moving there, so I didn't apply either. There was also a T-T job that recently came out for Australia, but again, who really is prepared to move that far for a job?
@ 8:58,
6-ob. Keep snubbing your nose at SLACs that you don't like the sound of and you'll remain unemployed. This is not the kind of market to have that kind of attitude in. It's a buyer's market and folks like you and I are a dime a dozen.
There's no shame in being a T-T prof at ANY school. Any. Even a Community College. So, we can condescend all day long but when there's 60-70 PhDs from TOP schools with amazing CVs all putting in for the same 8-12 jobs, I don't think anyone has the right to pass on a school that's not "good enough" for them.
Though, I prefer to have less competition, so by all means only apply for T-T jobs at Princeton and Oxford.
@ 9:12,
EXACTLY!!
A fellow ABD of mine at a top-10 was offered a T-T job at a low-3rd tier school of rather embarrassing name, and her advisor said "pass on it. The school isn't prestigious enough."
But... Her advisor is ~ 60 years old and hasn't been on the market since the late '70s. Remember that 99.9% of folks will get ONE T-T offer for their entire career, if they're lucky, so to pass on one or disparage someone for going to a 'meh' school that's offering them T-T ?? That is beyond asinine.
She accepted the school's offer and now is part of a very rare club of "employed" humanities PhDs.
@9:12 - I applied to Mississippi State.
Agreed that there is no shame in doing good teaching anywhere.
Sorry for the snark - I am just fed up with all of this (as, I am sure, are many of us).
(I am happy that this board is anonymous so that I can share this)
Most posters that speak ill of schools or scholars are simply angry and jealous that they were passed on. I understand their frustration, and I have no problem admitting that I, too, found myself at times enraged and at times in tears at the news that a job that I felt I was perfect for didn't even ask me for a first-round interview.
I can also admit that I lashed out here on occasion, rather unfairly, at the person who did get the job or at the institution on account of my emotions. I'm not proud of it, and in fact, I am extremely embarrassed that I have said some of the things that I have said on here out of (unjustified) anger. Fortunately, many of my horrible posts were deleted swiftly.
...It's very hard to face the reality that, even though you may have a chain of amazing pedigrees, PhD from a top-5 in hand, 15+ fellowships/scholarships/grants, 5-6 publications, presented at 12+ international conferences, have 5-6 years of teaching experience, been awarded teaching awards (numerous times), and have the field's most recognizable LOR writers, you can still end up with zero interviews, zero prospects.
...Is it unfair ? It sure is. But, life is unfair. Though I'm now facing a summer with no job, no prospects for the fall, and a mountain of bills and a family to take care of to boot, I can look at how I handled this particular job year as a year that I learned a very valuable (and honestly, very needed) lesson in humility.
So, let me say, for as much of a part in FV's downfall as I feel responsible for: I am sorry to all of you. I am sorry that I was one of the posters here who was particularly venomous. Hopefully, since this is an anonymous forum, since I ahve no obligation to sa anything, and that nobody will ever know who I am, my fellow FV-ers will take my apology as sincere.
If there really is an Australian TT that is open for a junior hire, please share. Does not seem to be on the wiki.
Can you craft a narrative where there's a reason under your control that caused your circumstances? Did you pick a boring topic to be a scholar of? Has anybody helped you calibrate the tone of your self-presentation? How are your interpersonal skills? Are you often venomous and then contrite, all anonymously? Just asking.
Thank you for your honesty, 9:35...
@ 2:49,
I began the job cycle in the fall being optimistic and cheerful. I really don’t know what factor there is to blame for my complete failure to be considered for any positions. My dissertation topic is very unboring; in fact, it is so unboring that it manages to get me invited to 3 different conferences, and managed to have me be the only ABD asked to contribute a book chapter to a monograph that was otherwise a collection of seasoned veterans and leading scholars in the field. All aspects of my portfolio (cover letters, CV, teaching philosophy, etc..) have gone through numerous stags of edits from 2 of my advisors. I am not kind of person to be mean or venomous at all; I didn’t begin to be that way until late January, when everything, when every door was shut and when even VAP jobs went to others that I deemed unsatisfactory.
...it’s a very hard thing for me to deal with all of this. Very hard. I’ve done everything right from BA to PhD and managed to outshine my peers every single step of the way. As such, I really can’t find a flaw or a missing element in my application. To make matters worse, my advisor recently commented to me that I may be best suited to start thinking about jobs outside academia. My confidence and self worth have completely plummeted. Every week I continue to see updates on the Wiki for VAP and PostDocs that I’ve put in for and my email account is empty.
@7:34 - that is really tough, and I'm really sorry to hear about your situation. Sometimes it all comes down to timing and luck. Hopefully your advisor is coming from a place of well-intended concern if this job cycle doesn't work out for you. It sounds like people take a genuine interest in your research and that you have real potential to make a contribution to the field! How do your research and teaching interact? Are their areas of your application or ways to expand your impact that you could work on? Sometimes it has nothing to do with others whom you deem unsatisfactory because you have no idea whether their training / research / interests / circumstances / networks happened to line up with the right committee at the right time. Good luck!!
@7:34, I am so, so sorry. I wonder if some jobs are afraid of you because you seem overqualified, or would outshine others in the department, and they're intimidated, but who knows. I hope something opens up for you soon. Do you believe in prayer? Appearances notwithstanding, all is in the hands of a wise, loving Providence. I believe that everything, absolutely everything, is subject to His control and power, even the foolish or unjust decisions of search committees. Maybe sometimes He wants us to lose, if only to conform us to Him in humility (as you mentioned). I sympathize, nay I empathize with your anger and sorrow.
If it's in your nature to lash out venomously at others when you feel slighted, there may be other negative aspects of your personality that come across to search committees (even in a cover letter) without your knowledge. If your advisors are as famous as you say (and have the kinds of personalities that often come along with that fame), they may be unable to detect it or they may not believe that it is a problem. Those of us at "embarrassing" schools (to quote other posters, or maybe you) are pretty good at seeing through any bullshit attempts to hide your true feelings about us. If you have truly learned a lesson in humility that has affected your inner being, you may do better next year. If not, take your advisor's tip and look elsewhere.
You may want to check that your materials are not a mismatch for the majority of the jobs. Advisors at top schools, and the students who have learned from them, tend to over-emphasize research and neglect teaching and service. This reflects the priorities of those who have tenure at tippy-top places, but, realistically, you're not going to get that kind of job: only a few in a generation ever do, and you've had the bad luck to be part of a generation that is truly screwed. So you and your letters need to show that you can inspire lethargic and under-prepared kids in gen-ed classes, and that you will do it with a smile on your face -- i.e. not getting your nose bent out of shape about how the undergraduates at your fancy alma mater were so much better. Because that's what 98% of the jobs are. You may want to see if you can get a (very good) friend at a teaching college to give your materials a once-over and see if there's something that is rubbing people the wrong way. Word to the wise: interfolio materials can be sent to any email address.
We keep the White House in tippy-top shape!
OP here,
Thanks, to all of you for your kind words and suggestions. I agree that it’s likely in my best interest to redraft my cover letter a bit. Though, my venomousness didn’t rear its head until well after all applications were in, so I’m not too sure how much of a tint may be present in my cover letters, but it can’t hurt to reassess my entire portfolio and how I present myself.
I tend to think that what a major problem has been is that I fall into a very odd category, in that I’m from a top school, but not a TOP school. So for all of the jobs this year at phenomenal institutions, regardless of the work I’ve done and my promise, I’m not from within their “closed circuit.” And for all of the jobs at lower 2nd tier or lower schools (which comprise the other 80% of jobs this year), I’m seen as being too out of league and that I’d abandon ship once something else came along. So, in short, the TT jobs this year were st schools that were either far too high up or too far below on the totom poll for what fits me. My “seeet spot” would be a low 1st tier or upper 2nd tier institution... I guess.
I don’t know. I just want to hear back from the 8-12 VAPs already, but most are still accepting applications until well into May, which only further extends all of our misery and false senses of hope.
^^ “at”
^^ “sweet spot”
@12:43 How many years have you been on the market?
What if supposed market irrationality is just an excuse for your own shortcomings? You're already coming across as douchey here - why do you think it's any different in your cover letters, interviews, recommendations, etc.?
I had a tough year from another direction: lots of interviews, lots of campus visits, but at the end of the day no offer. It is truly discouraging and disheartening to feel you are doing things well (and to get interest and interviews showing that you're doing things well), but to see the offers going to others. Of course the instinct is to scan those others' CV's to see what they're doing and how they compare, and it is EXTREMELY frustrating to see a CV that seems less impressive than yours or not a good fit for the position as described. Bitterness and even venom are reasonable reactions, and I don't agree with 1:58 that 9:35 above is probably a "douche." It just sucks.
For what it's worth, I've had some friends on SC's describe the process to me and it sounds like these decisions are often fraught with their own version of venom. I've heard tales of name-calling, table-pounding, and the like. So many factors come into play, including the personalities of those in the room. I have tried to tell myself that the absence of offers this year doesn't necessarily reflect on me, but of course it feels like an indictment of you/your scholarship/your teaching and it's much worse when you get so close to the end. I don't know what else to say except that it sucks.
@12:43 you definitely come across as an asshole, so do review those application materials and try to tone it down a notch.
Sincerely,
Working-class 1st generation college student who ate your lunch for a top TT job this cycle / works hard, wins allies, and doesn't make a scene / has a better CV [6 high-impact journal articles and counting, ya prick]
@3:22 you wouldn't happen to be a historian would you? a highly decorated one?
Wow, I can't decide which one of the two players in the above drama (3.22 or 12.43) sounds like a *worse* conversation partner. So much self-aggrandizement in all directions.
@3:41 actually i'm a philologist, thanks?
But we can all agree they are both white males, right?
@4:16, oh yeah, they have to be white males.
I don't know, 3:22. I don't mean this as an insult, but I think that everyone who has a been offered a job, from the Ivy PhDs to the Idaho PhDs, has just been lucky. At least in the last 5-10 years. Sincere congrats, @3:22, on all of the high impact publishing. But there's an equally plausible tragedy where you don't have a TT despite those great publications. Lots of awesome people from all kinds of programs, of all different races, genders, and whatever other identifications don't have jobs. And they sometimes have admirable publications, they have networks, they have people who want them to succeed and try to help, but what they don't have are permanent positions. But its because the SC that wants that candidate has not yet formed or will never form. There are just too many of us. Don't you have friends in the field who can't find good VAP positions, to say nothing of TTs? If all of the people that you think are smart and capable have jobs, you are leading a charmed life (and, if we have met, I hope you thought I was smart and capable).
FUCK CLASSICS
Thanks for the meaningful contribution, there, 4:55!
Just my two cents here, but 12:43 doesn’t sound at all like an asshole. I mean, his past behavior is asshole behavior, for sure, but nothing that he’s saying here and now makes me think he’s an asshole.
3:22, however, sounds like a petulant child from start to finish. By the way, 3:22, thanks so much for coming on here and speaking as you did about your new T-T job in such condescending tone to all of us plebs. At least 12:43 (seemingly) has acknowledged his poor behavior and manners, meanwhile you’ve demonstrated a far worse level of dickishness
Novus homo 3:22 is to be congratulated, but it would be nice if he could avoid the Ciceronian self praise. As for Cato rejected for the consulship 12:43, I don't agree with the attacks on his character and personality, or the invitation for him to pyschoanalyze himself. Sometimes people have a really bad year or go through a really bad time, and if you went through the same thing, how do you know that you wouldn't lose it on occasion?
I know because I have become a well-socialized member of the human community. My soul, through study, growth, adversity, and fellowship, has become gentle in tragedy in the same way as it understands that victory and happiness are contingent and ephemeral. Because my morality includes at least the Golden Rule, I do not lash out, become venomous, "lose it", or engage in other childish nonconstructive behaviors when things don't go my way.
Try it, some day.
And then, sometimes, someone out of nowhere with actual people skills eats your lunch anyways.
6:13 is right. The level of adulting in Classics is astonishingly low.
@6:13,
You sound like a really humble down to earth guy.
Is it really this normal for so many VAPs to be popping up so late in the cycle? At this rate, many are still accepting applications until late May, which means that decisions won't go out until close to mid-June.
..This is my first rodeo, so I am genuinely asking here.
@7:07,
On the contrary, I am a complete asshole. You would hate me. But that still doesn't give me the right to lose it on others when things don't go my way.
Hopefully 7:07 was being ironic.
@7:09, my general impression is that we are indeed seeing a few more (not a lot more) VAP positions drag on into the eve of the season, maybe because a few TT jobs came up later than is typical, and a few of those (and other) TT hires have dragged on longer than seems usual. There may still be a few more vacancies popping up after most of the dust settles, but that assumes a rather willing and efficient administration at a few places... If you feel particularly inspired, you may be able to find information of some sort on the FV archives from previous seasons.
I'll just throw this out there - it seems as if some of us are rather new at this whole process. People who have been at it a while have ALL had a really bad year or a really bad time, at some stage of this fun little game. People who struck it rich, landing a TT as ABD, cannot possibly comprehend much of what people are feeling around here. But someday other things may happen. Meanwhile, people who haven't landed anything in their first time around (as ABD or recently-minted PhDs) cannot possibly begin to know what it's all like for those who have been riding the merry-go-round for years.
1. We can still all be civil to each other. I cannot fathom what it must be like to be around people in real life who "talk" the way some of us do on this anonymous forum.
2. Those of us lucky enough to land permanent jobs where we may be advising undergraduates and graduate students need to do a much better job advising those people - and warning them about things to come, perhaps.
3. And yes, at the end of the day ANYONE who lands a permanent job in this field is lucky. You're not the first and best special snowflake who puts all other snowflakes to shame. Nor am I. You can buy more tickets to increase your odds of winning the lottery, but in the end it's still a lottery, and it may or may not be rigged in some way or other.
@ 7:13,
No kidding. 12:43 came here to apologize for his (?) actions on FV in light of deeper reflection. What's the point of chiming in and telling us all how you'd never do what 12:43 did ? I mean, 90% of us here don't behave like 12:43 did, and if ever someone is genuinely apologetic for past actions and takes the initiative to come forward and accept responsibility and be a better person for it, how is it constructive to then grandstand and say how you'd never behave like he did ?
aren't you, then, doing the very thing that you claim to not ever do:
"I do not lash out, become venomous, "lose it", or engage in other childish nonconstructive behaviors"
@ 7:21,
"ou can buy more tickets to increase your odds of winning the lottery, but in the end it's still a lottery, and it may or may not be rigged in some way or other."
...this is, perhaps, the best summation of CV filling-up, etc.. that we all endlessly chase while being pre-TT that I've ever heard.
On VAPs: It can be all over the place, although I would say this was weak and late VAP season. Late VAPs tend to be driven by folks leaving to take TT jobs (some just now finishing negotiation and being announced), as well as regular faculty announcing retirement and sabbatical plan. There is always the odd sex criminal identified and resigning in disgrace. These will tend to be the source of late breaking VAPs.
As a rule, the late the VAP, the more informal the hire process. A VAP announced in the fall may interview at the SC, and even have campus visits. Late jobs may only preform a perfunctory interview, often with a small group of candidates. Very late jobs might be decided with a phone call to through the good old boys (and girls) network.
Some places may also be rushing to cobble together jobs for favorite children that failed to get jobs (full discloser, my current job is a shady-welfare VAP). They may be required to advertise and interview, so beware of an output of fake jobs that go to a predetermined candidate.
I am terrified to even ask, but does anyone know anything about the status of the Joukowsky Postdoctoral Fellowship in Archaeology and the Ancient World ?
It's been 6-7 weeks since review was set to begin. Any info would be appreciated.
Do not know the status. But J. at Brown has always been a closed shop, and my guess is if you have to ask the status, that is a good sign you are not a finalist (I applied last year, and nothing but Black Hole). My guess is the candidate, or at least the short list, were known before the search was formally announced.
Note: That is fama.. I have no inside information, just observations of Joukowsky's M.O.
When I submitted my app for the Brown post-doc, I got an automated reply/acknowledgement that included this line: "The Search Committee will be in contact with finalists by late April 2018." So, I wouldn't give up hope just yet.
Inside scoop on Joukowsky: I know that the SC is scheduled to meet late this week/early next week. I was told that about a week or so ago by a colleague at Joukowsky. No decisions have been made, and the committee has yet to determine their finalists.
The million dollar question really is “how many?”
Some years they take in 1, some 2, some 4, they’ve even taken in as many as 6 postdocs in a single year. I think, I repeat I only *think* that if memory serves, one of the SC members told me it would be a 2-postdoc year this next cycle. But, if the SC really desires to do so, they can amend that number with rather little headache. One of the perks of being a deep-pocketed institute, which often benefits strong candidates during a year filled with many other strong candidates.
SC member here. 12:43, your comments on this forum have sometimes alluded in pretty specific terms to elements of your CV (# of this, ## of that), and so I have had a sense of who (I think) you are. Yes, it is true you have many achievements and great letters of recommendation. I did wonder if the specific medium you work on would interest our students (and would provide enough material for a plurality of courses). I also see in my notes about your file that I thought your cover letter needed to show more and tell less (there was a lot about your accolades--I wanted more of the meat of your academic arguments). Hope that helps.
@10:06,
12:43 here..
I appreciate your comments and insight; I’ll be sure to revisit and edit my cover letter with your thoughts in mind. It’s been a particularly difficult year for Late Antique/Early Byzantine studies (which I don’t mind sharing is my speciality so that 10:06 can have a batter idea of who I am, while I can still remain anonymous to FV), as very few TT positions were posted this year; 2 in fact for the US. A few other TT jobs were out that, while not “Late Antique” specific, offered a broader umbrella of specificity in their ads.
It doesn’t seem as if too many LA jobs will be around in the near future either; along with adjusting my cover letter to emphasize my accolades less, it would probably be best to also stress more how LA studies can bridge Classics and History Depts, which is particular important in an increasingly interdisciplinary world.
Thanks again for your insight.
@10:51. History's dying faster than classics: tailor your letters to the latter, where there are -- surprisingly? -- more available jobs. A number of folks who got classics gigs this year were LA people, but is that a trend? Being able to teach a wider range of Greek lit + both traditional and more unusual archaeology/culture studies courses should be a 'win' for you. Be vocally aware of folks who may also do Byzantine from Art History / Relig Studies or other departments in your apps - speak to a local audience! And sure, besides interdisciplinarity, press the relevance of Late Antiquity as we watch our current world system break down: write up a good syllabus for the state of empire / diversity / class / gender / ethnicity in the late ancient world: we've got lots of great primary sources and archaeology that folks working on earlier periods wish they had!
Even the most perfectest LA/Byzantinist unemployed?
"How unimaginable!" said no non-LA/Byzantinist, ever.
I am not the late antiquity scholar who has recently been posting, but a different one. If you could collectively stop constantly hating on Late Antiquity as a subfield that would be superb.
Wow, I forget to visit the wiki in three days, and all hell breaks loose. Trying to decide if someone who got a TT offer going "Nah nah na-na-na" while blowing raspberries at the rest of us is better or worse than the NAMBLA conversation that preceded it by a few days.
umm the latter's probably worse, if not for the fact that our field is focused on a culture that legitimized pederasty?
@12:43,
I’m also a LA scholar, and I completely understand your frustration with this year’s job cycle. As some may be aware, one of the two jobs for our field this year (SUNY-Stony Brook) saw the SC Chair accidentally send an email to all of the job applicants as CC not BCC, thereby providing us all with a full list of names, email addresses, and current institutions for all 216 candidates that were not chosen to be interviewed. It was an additional slap in the face to us all.
I don’t know for sure who you are, 12:43, but what I can say is that there were 2-3 folks that I know of who fit your rather detailed self-description, and for what it’s worth, seeing that you were also passed over at Stony Brook made me feel less awful in the sense that if your application was not pursued then how could I be so upset if I, too, was passed on?
I know it sounds kind of awful to say that, but I guess what I’m also saying is that I can 100% understand your anger at this year’s process.
@12:43, thought I'd chime in on the Late Antique discussion as well. From your earlier post at 7:34, it looks like you were ABD when you began this cycle. Echoing what previous posters have said, I can say that your experience on the market this year is definitely par for the course. It takes years and years.
Also, a small clarification: the Stony Brook "late antique or medieval history" position was not really a job "for our field", as that position was advertised as "ca. 200 -1400 CE", which covers a whole lot more than even the most generous understanding of "The Long Late Antiquity" might allow for.
I am also a LA scholar, but I have found the opposite experience and that my speciality is more in-demand than I expected it would be. Each job that I progressed in was especially interested in broadening their repertoire and I think I was competitive because of my speciality, not in spite of it.
That being said, I think if you do LA, you must expect to also be a generalist in this job market. Very few schools have the funds/interest to hire a dedicated LA scholar, and you must necessarily also be comfortable potentially teaching about things from 800 BCE through Byzantine and Medieval. It's the way it goes.
@8:08,
Ancient historian here who (foolishly) put in for the Stony Brook job. The SC Chair there is a medievalist and focuses on later/high MA. So, with that in mind I’d tend to interpret their posting as being far more tilted towards LA than anything else. Yes, they cast a broad net but so too does (literally) every Classics dept job (“ability to teach Latin and Greek at all levels”) even if they’re hiring a historian or achaeologist.
@8:40 I totally get where you're coming from, about why one might have thought Stony Brook would have been "far more tilted towards LA", but I stand by what I wrote earlier (8:08). The three job talks (as far as I know) were on late medieval slave trade, Angevin Italy, and Nasrid Granada. Not a whole lot of Late Antique there at all.
Also an LA person, here. And I think 8:25 is right, for the most part. I don't know about the exact timeline that they have proposed, but I think generalist LA scholars are in an OK position right now. As downsizing continues, too, generalists will become more valuable rather than less (?). I don't think we're better or worse off than anyone else, but, I think we can certainly compete in the marketplace of ideas and and academic specializations.
Has a second offer gone out at Columbia?
Does anyone have an update on the Concordia VAP?
Does anyone else see the irony in the orderly conversation Byzantinists are having about how their long, dedicated, and careful training in a labyrinthine system of qualifications and examinations and careful scheming SHOULD HAVE arranged acolytes according to merit in a hierarchical system for employment in a crucial social institution?
I applied for Concordia, too, but as has been said here before, the likelihood is that no non-Canadian will be offered a VAP in Canada. It’s too much bullshit for them to go through just to hire a 1-yr guy.
@12:49, I heard yes, but I was very drunk and heard it third-hand, so that's definitely some famae volent for you.
SC member @ 10:06,
Given that you were so able to identify 12:43, who then further identified himself as a Late Antique specialist, I wanted to ask about a point that you made about their being a Late Antique specialist. In particular, you stated that you "did wonder if the specific medium you work on would interest our students (and would provide enough material for a plurality of courses)."
As a fellow LA scholar I want to know if the problem with our field, from a broader Classicist perception that is, is that our "medium" (which is an odd phrasing) of LA/Byz more so that A) undergrads will avoid unfamiliar course offerings of LA and favor those of (more familiar) Alexander and Augustus, or that B) undergrads would never warm up to LA stuff, even if provided with adequate broad survey courses that outline it before exposure to dedicated courses?
...Secondly, is it typical for SC members to keep notes about every candidate as you did for 12:43, or was it more that 12:43 was an 'almost' shortlisted candidate?
I would doubt that the (alleged) SC member used "medium" to mean "field." I would guess, rather, that they meant "medium": epistolography, portraiture, something like that. But "LA" and Byz are two totally different things from a Classicist's perspective. Hellenic Studies is (all-too-)slowly gaining steam, but a grand total of about three NA Classics departments have someone who works on Byzantine things. By contrast, LA (especially understood widely) is a normal part of medium-to-large research departments. Just like any specialty, you should expect that you will be more successful if you can participate widely in the department's teaching--just like Homerists don't just teach four Homer courses a year.
what happened with amherst? last i heard they were going through some ridiculous first round, second round/campus interview for a one year vap?
Amherst made an offer which was accepted.
Yes, Amherst held campus visits for the 1-2 year VAP and made an offer to their first choice candidate. I haven’t heard for sure whether it was accepted or not, but I would guess so as campus visits were several weeks ago.
This is SC member @ 10:06 responding to 2:50 PM. As to your first question, see 3:34 PM's answer (which is correct). Our ad didn't mention period, but we were very interested in later periods and interviewed candidates with work across multiple eras.
Is it common to keep notes in a big spreadsheet like I did? Probably not, but I wanted to ensure that I gave each application a fair viewing and could participate in our committee's discussion without inadvertently mixing up candidates etc. etc.
@ 10:06 / 4:55, can you give the rest of us LA folks any general advice about presenting ourselves effectively?
I thought we decided awhile ago that Late Antique/Byzantine/Whatever is just fancy terminology for ugly, dogmatic, mind-numbing trash that real Classicists don't want to study? Nobody cares about images of Angry Jesus or Dead-Eyed Mary or the machinations of people like Constantine, Justinian, or Theodosius and other assorted non-entities.
What are thoughts about applying for VAP jobs in the UK as an American?
I understand that it is not always feasible for those of us who have families with children, etc.. so that's not really what I mean by my question, but instead the following concerns:
1.) Is the fact that 99% of awarded VAP jobs in the UK are to OxBridge PhDs more a reflection of the lack of US PhDs applying or instead a reflection of the (perceived) superiority and/or familiarity with UK higher education practices that most US folks are not accustomed to ?
2.) How would taking a VAP job in the UK affect perception of your application for next season to US schools? I understand that every SC is different, but generally speaking, is your gut saying that it be a positive, negative, or neutral element if your portfolio is to be reviewed by a US school looking at a candidate currently VAP-ing at a UK school?
Any input and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
SC member @ 10:06 / 4:55 to 9:31PM: I wish I had some good general advice, but every institution is so different. That's one of the major fallacies of the job market--that there are rules that can be followed and that all schools have something in common. Instead, each school is a very idiosyncratic group of individuals, responding in their own ways to national trends and internal needs. Things that would work in an application for a job at my institution would backfire elsewhere. That's why the job market is frustratingly like dating.
Another SC member: 9:18 is absolutely right. Even within an SC, individual members may read particular elements of dossiers completely differently. Someone up above said it: anyone who has been hired in the past ten years has been profoundly lucky, no matter how good their CV is. Nobody should be taunting the unsuccessful, as has also happened on this board. There but for the grace of tuche....
@ SC member 10:06 / 4:55 / 9:18,
What kind of institution are you currently at? An R1, SLAC, Ivy, etc..
Also, in your most recent SC duty, are there any insights you can share about what your Dept was looking for, both broadly (e.g., Latin Philologist; Greek Archaeology) and what the SC was looking for at a narrower level in their determination of finalists (e.g., research promise; teaching experience; a 4-5 year VAP veteran, etc..)
Thanks.
My advisor once told me about a rather nasty fight that happened between SC members regarding a Roman Archaeology search at a top-10. The issue was that 3/5 members all had their mind set on selecting a candidate who specializes in some form of non-traditional Roman archaeology (a focuses on Mauritania or the Balkans) while 2/5 felt that there is no problem in looking closer at Roman Archaeologists whose research focuses on, you know, Rome or even Italy.
The 3/5 argued that Italian/Urban Roman archaeology is stale, overdone, and pointless, and that fringe sites and regions offer new opportunities. The 2/5 argued that the TT hire would be responsible for teaching the undergrad Roman Arch. survey courses, and that taking on an "oddball" focus hire would make it difficult to interest classics undergrads (an already diminishing lot).
It seems to be a lot of desiring "new and exciting" over what is seen as 20th century topics. There are merits to both arguments, of course, but that's a different discussion. What's germane here is that SC members often go into a hiring process with deep prejudices towards various fields and mediums, and some may find one's research obscurity a refreshing addition to the field, while others may see it as an unknown and untried entity.
I would imagine that one's generation comes into play here too. For what it's worth, the 3/5 were all younger Profs, the 2/5 were all close to 70.
@9:09 the problem with trying for a UK VAP is not going to be in your familiarity with the system or that you don't have an Oxbridge PhD. It's going to be that they don't want to sponsor you for a visa for one year. This might be even more true now that the policies of the UK government are turning more and more nativist, even in higher education.
As an American with a UK PhD, I can tell you that I generally didn't even bother applying for UK jobs when I was finishing,and now that I'm back in the US I don't see myself returning.
@9.09
It's certainly not unheard of for non-UK PhDs to hold a UK VAP, though obviously the faculties/departments are interested in someone who can teach their curriculum (they also aren't as dominated by Oxbridge grads as your post suggests, unless you're thinking of temporary jobs in Oxford and Cambridge, which are often held by someone with a doctorate from the institution; even there, however, there are plenty of people from elsewhere in the UK as well). Most UK institutions teach through a mixture of lectures and classes/seminars, so aren't so very far from a US model (as I understand it), though most students are doing a degree in a particular subject (i.e. they have already decided that they are doing a history/classics/philosophy degree) and the course content may be a bit more specialised than it would be for comparable undergrad teaching in the US.
One thing to keep in mind is that the salary for UK VAPs (what we'd call temporary teaching jobs or something similar) can fall below the threshold for visa sponsorship. I think you'd be on a Tier 2 visa (https://www.gov.uk/tier-2-general/eligibility) which normally has a salary threshold of c. £30,000. Some temp jobs (covering for someone with Leverhulme major research leave for example) will be well above this (see this one at St Andrew's for instance: https://www.vacancies.st-andrews.ac.uk/Vacancies/W/6876/0/181023/889/lecturer-in-ancient-history-ref-ac1869rxas). Others won't.
Probably best to write to the department asking if they'd be willing to sponsor you for a visa (if the advertisement doesn't say already).
The UK VAP market is even more saturated with applicants than this one. Nearly every school with a Classics department produces PhDs, plus they are (at the moment, i.e. pre-Brexit) very much open to hiring talented people from within the EU - lots of Germans, Greeks, and Italians (and others) have been appointed to all sorts of research and teaching posts. However, a good number of senior posts are held by Americans if that's encouraging. I think it might not be worth it for a one year position, but could be for a multi-year VAP ...
Re: the St. Andrews VAP
Looking back through 10 years of the Wiki, in all instances of people having a similar VAP at St. Andrews their PhD is from OxBridge. Additionally, all TT jobs in the wiki that St.Andrews filled were filled with OxBridge folks.
...So, even though St.Andrews *may say* that they will sponsor US Visas (you'd have to email the Dept. Chair, as their ad mentions nothing of Visas), they have a pretty solid track record of focusing attention on OxBridge grads. Can't say that I blame them, but as an American looking across the pond for a 1-year job I'd recommend my fellow Yankees to not waste their time.
With regards to UK jobs, there are some that are worth Americans putting in for, especially multi-year positions.
For instance, the University of Oxford and the Ashmolean Museum have a 3-yr post for an assistant curator/lecturer in Classical Archaeology. Since many folks here have not heard of this position (which closes soon), here's the ad below (I've also placed it in the Wiki):
http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/BIX561/assistant-curator-lecturer/
New T-T job at Cambridge in Greek Literature...
Closes on the 25th, so act quick.
http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/BIV678/university-lecturer-in-classics-greek-literature/
Also, two new non-TT jobs were posted yesterday on the SCS site.
So much fake news.
They look like legit jobs to me...
Shame on U Illinois, Chicago for making an offer to a candidate and withdrawing from it two weeks later. They should suit your ass.
whaaaat? what would be the reason for this happening??
Huh?
If you're referring to UIC, I'm not surprised. That department once had a pretty stellar lineup of faculty, but over the years they've either gone elsewhere, retired, or died and the department has gone into decline. The Latin position is to fill the gap left by a faculty member who passed away in August. The people with power there are 1) a very, very nutty but influential Bronze Age scholar with a famous last name 2) an archaeologist who thinks very highly of themselves and is in general an unpleasant person.
Here's a fun article from a few years ago about some of the skullduggery that has happened at UIC in the past.
https://cookcountyrecord.com/stories/510662929-former-uic-greek-studies-professor-says-colleagues-torpedoed-tenure-application-demands-4-million
It would be helpful if someone would go through the wiki and do the same analysis 3:47 PM did for all UK positions. I suspect the results would be the same as for St. Andrews: while Americans without prior connections to there are not technically disqualified, they effectively are. Not so for senior positions, of course.
Can someone provide more context for what happened at UIC?
RE: 1:39 - it's apparently a visa status issue, UIC didn't want to go through the hassle/cost of getting the candidate a work visa. But of course they must have all sorts of faculty who require work visas, so it seems completely bizarre and also reflects terribly on the department and university.
RE: UI
Job offered on 4.4 to a European scholar with American Ph.D.H1B visa stipulation agreed by the institution.
4.11 Syllabi and courses submitted to UI classics by said scholar
4.21 "We're sorry. The sponsorship exceeds our budget. We can't hire you. Bye."
So I assume the Eidolon editorial board whined a little too loudly that their snowflake sensibilities were offended, and so FV dies so they can corner the classics blog market?
Someone should take on that case pro bono. Or at least we should shame UIC.
Eidolon is worried about anyone who wants to make Classics truly great again, because it would put them out of business.
Who accepted the San Antonio job? Seems like time to update the Wiki.
I'd be extremely grateful if anyone could shed some light on a problem I'm wrestling with: I'm working on an individual SCS abstract on a topic that is essentially an expansion of a small portion of an article I have forthcoming (which will be in print before SCS in San Diego). My reasoning for pursuing this topic as an SCS abstract is that a) I would be examining the topic in greater depth in the paper than in the article and b) it's an idea I'm interested in getting feedback on at SCS since it will likely turn into an important section of the book project I'm working on. That said, is it unethical to "reuse" an idea in this manner in an SCS paper? Is there perhaps an ethical spectrum of "reuse," and if so, how does one determine where one's individual case falls on that spectrum?
@12:56,
welcome to the club. it is very, very common to present a topic at a conference that is, to varying degrees, a portion of a larger project or paper. Many people happen to present the same paper at multiple conferences; that's sort of the purpose of feedback for conferences, in that you can get feedback to improve your research.
to be clear, however, I'm not saying that you want to be one of those folks who presents the paper 'x' at 4 different conferences under 4 different titles, but to present a smaller portion of a work up for publication is 100% fine and is encouraged by all good advisors, I'd imagine.
Lol, no, that is not "unethical." Good grief. That is the definition of a research trajectory.
Indeed, I think there is nothing wrong presenting an article that is either in press or even recently published.
First, many people will attend a 20 minute talk who might benefit from your conclusions but will not bother to take the hour or so to slog through an article.
Secondly, the presentation may be attended by people interested in your topic, and alerting them to your article is valuable publicity for you. I am much more likely to read and cite articles where I have seen a talk by the presenter. Remember, your goal is not just to bury this in a journal, but to have people read and cite it.
Finally, I think the fact that the project is on a publication trajectory absolves you of any worries that you are conference shopping. What is poor practice is when professors eat up conference funding presenting on topics they never plan to publish, and then use that to justify "continued scholarly engagement." But this is something you have pushed through peer review. You should have no qualms presenting at the SCS.
12:56 here; thanks so much for all the very helpful advice! Just one more question: should I cite myself in the SCS abstract? It seems that it would make sense to cite myself (name, forthcoming 2018) once in the literature review at the beginning of the abstract, but is it essentially plagiarism not to cite my forthcoming article at every point in the rest of the abstract in which I mention something I say in that article? I'm worried that doing so would out me as the author of the abstract and thus compromise the anonymity of the SCS review process.
4:00,
You can go either way on whether to cite yourself. If you're citing forthcoming work the committee will be too smart not to realize there is a very good chance that you are the abstract's author as well, but if you follow the guidelines and treat yourself as some other scholar (i.e., 3rd-person) you are doing nothing wrong. However, unless it is clear to them that this is NOT a problem, they might suspect that you are giving a paper that says nothing not already in the forthcoming article, and they might reject it on that suspicion alone. So if citing yourself, definitely make clear that you are building on that mysterious scholar's work.
Oh, sorry, I should have addressed you as 12:56. After all, we're on a first time-stamp name basis.
4:00,
Another option would be to say something like, "In a forthcoming article, I argue XXX. Building on that work, this paper advances YYY and ZZZ."
I don't know if the UIC victim is a visitor to FV, but this does seem like a violation of AAUP standards, and it's at least worth looking into whether it violates contract law in Illinois.
I would love to see at least the threat of a lawsuit being made, since if UIC has external counsel it would cost them more in lawyer fees than the visa fees would have cost.
If it were me, there is simply no way I would not consult a lawyer, even if the result were learning that I had not been legally wronged.
I believe the SCS explicitly requests that you treat yourself as a third person in order to prevent identification. If the article is just forthcoming and not yet published, I would not list it. It will just identify you, because seriously, how many other people know that article is forthcoming? People regularly give SCS papers that overlap with published or soon-to-be published work: the deadline for an SCS abstract is so far removed from the actual delivery of the talk -- and publishing speeds are so variable -- that there's no way to control that, and nobody expects you to.
Berkeley really cleaned up this year!
Berkeley is eating our lunch!
Broken clocks occasionally tell time.
Did any Classicists get fancy SOF positions this year? Pton/Harvard/Columbia/Cornell?
The person who got the Stanford TT job will do two years of Harvard SOF.
Wow, they must be really excellent.
^Yes, I would assume so!
Any news on what is going on with Chicago?
A few people are eating our lunch!
All the Berkeley hires are old news. But, yeah, they definitely have the most representation this year for jobs. These things are cyclical, and it very well may be a good number of years until they have have such a showing as they did this year.
There were quite a few good schools that didn’t see their grads get any (reported) jobs: Yale and Cornell most notable. And quite a few top schools that only had 1 hire: UNC-CH, Duke, Columbia (thought only a VAP).
This is my first year on the market with PhD in hand, but I don’t think that the results we have thus far are that shocking. Pretty expected stuff. 95% of the jobs went to top-12 folks. No ‘upsets” really.
About 40% of the jobs out there are still yet to conclude and/or post *who* got them, but I doubt we’ll see much variation from the top-12 folks getting 95%+ of the jobs.
I, for one (a top-5 guy), am still empty handed. I’ve had 4 T-T interviews and a VAP interview, by no visits or job offers. It’s a grisly year to be one’s first year, but I’m hopeful that there’s still time for us all to land something.
Good luck to all of you still slugging away out there!
Duke had two hires-Clemson and Oregon.
Re: UIC situation
European scholar here - I've just accepted a two year position in the US, and they are sponsoring me for J1, which is much easier and cheaper than H1B. Not sure if this is helpful (one would hope the international office at UIC is aware of this option), but you never know...
Both Yale and Cornell placed this year, just not listed yet. Still a great year for Berkeley.
@2:42 re: J1, beware that the catch with a J1 is that once your J1 runs out you are obligated to return to your country and cannot take up work on a different visa for 2 years without going through a nightmarish set of hoops. This means you are likely to not be able to take another position after this one. I would advise you look into this very carefully before going ahead with the J1.
UIC is a large, high-output research university in one of the country's largest cities--its faculty has more than a few foreigners. This smells more like departmental incompetence than anything else, as it seems to me whatever administrative office that has to oversee this type of hire would be well aware of the process and costs involved.
There are quite literally caravans of foreign scholars coming to work at UIC. Not clear why this one Classicist was treated so unfairly.
A bad year for most public universities: zero placements listed so far in total for UNC, UIUC, UVA, UT Austin, FSU, Wisconsin, Ohio.... all put together. Some will eventually turn up, sure, but it is pretty amazing that at this point in the year, none have.
Well, I see 1 for UNC (at UNC-G) and 1 for Wisconsin (at Monmouth). I've also heard something about an Ohio State hire at Penn State, but all hearsay. But that doesn't negate your point by any means - it only goes some very small way towards mitigating it. It's definitely something to worry about for the viability of those programs going forward.
Of course, depending on whichever schmuck of the evening is around, this outcome could be the result of the laziness and dullness of public school grad students or, alternately, because of some nefarious old-(gender)'s 'top-10' (however-defined) network in action - Cincinnati excluded, of course, unless people are willing to toss out a Cornell or two to let in this feisty, dirty-playing contender.
Here's looking forward to never having to read any of the above-mentioned garbagio debates in this forum again.
@3:00,
UNC has one (reported) T-T job, but there also are at least 2 others that I know of yet to be added to the Wiki. Regarding relatively low Public turnout, Michigan has not (thus far) reported any T-T placements this year.
This year's job market is bad for everyone, but in no way does it seem to suggest the inviability of public programs. As posted (not rumors of what will post), not only did Berkeley have a very strong year, but also jobs to products of UCLA, Washington, UNC, Cincinnati, Iowa, UT Austin, Wisconsin, CUNY and Michigan. Now some of these folks had been on the market for years, and some were moving from other TT jobs, but still suggests that public programs play an important role in the ecosystem of the field.
Kill off all these dead-weight programs at public universities and the field with thrive! Ivies first! Down with Eidolon! MCGA!
On average, it seems as though people who got TT jobs this year were floating around for about 4 years, with obvious outliers at each end. Does that seem right to everyone? This could be a helpful figure to know, if roughly. How many years post-Ph.D. until TT job?
^ i don't understand why you think coming up with an "average" number of years on market is useful... There's no rhyme or reason to the job market and coming up with an "average" only gives the false impression to future applicants that that's how it should work. Anyway, I don't even think we have enough data for any given average to be worth anything...
UPenn is, like, a very good school. MCGA!
Many hires seem to be 2-4 years out. But some caution in "it takes four-five years to get a job." Many people drop out of the field altogether after four-five years, as they can no longer bear the financial depredations and moral degradations of VAP life. So the moral may be less," hang on, it will take four years" and instead "its not worth wasting more than four years to get a TT job."
Also, as has been endlessly pointed out, it is not like this is a line to get on the bus. You can be four years out, with a long CV, and get beat out by a golden ABD with zero publications. Sometimes that golden ABD will indeed be a better fit for the department than you would be, sometimes not. But suffice it to say this is not a field that rewards dues paying.
@8:47 am
You don't have to scroll down the wiki very far to see that Michigan does have a T-T placement this year.
Still a low turnout for public university programs, though...
Sometimes that golden ABD has a certain je ne sais quoi (don't delete!).
Looks like UT-Austin finally got a PhD student placed! Nice. Publics are coming up.
...though I really wish that the guy from UT-Austin who got the TT job actually got his PhD from Johns Hopkins instead. I’d fucking love that. Lol
@12:35,
You’re sense of humor is my sense of humor. Thumbs up!
Re: the ratio of graduates from public to private universities getting positions. I went through and counted T-T offers *currently listed* (4/24 @~12:30am est) on the wiki, and came up with the following figures:
* Public universities (including UK and Canada): 19
* Private universities (including UK and Canada): 17
Keep in mind that many entries (maybe half?) still do not include details of who accepted a job. Nevertheless, the ratio of public to private is about even right now. Contra what others have said, public universities are doing just as well (or, for glass half empty types, just as poorly) in the job market.
@12.42,
There are only five private universities in the UK, none of which award a PhD in Classics (Buckingham, BPP, Regent's, Arden, and University of Law). All other UK universities (including Oxford and Cambridge) are public, so I'm curious which UK institutions you included among your total of 17 private.
I actually didn't know that Oxford and Cambridge were "public"; excuse my ignorance. The UK system is a black box to me. Though, from what I understand, the UK notion of "public" is rather different from that in the States. Given the water they draw and the absurd financial cost, OxBridge seems more equivalent to our Ivy system, but feel free to tip those figures into the other column if you'd prefer.
Wow. As an American I have to say that I am floored that OxBridge, and seemingly all universities in the UK, are public.
In the US, you are high class if you go to private uni, and low class if you go to public uni.
In the UK, you are high class if you go to uni, and low class if you don't. They don't need the distinction among unis.
Exclusivity and quality aren't the same thing. Grow up.
I am floored that there are people with Ph.D.'s in Classics who don't understand how the UK works.
Yeah—so bizarre that someone wouldn't know the ins and outs of a foreign country thousands of miles away that offers minimal professional opportunities, and those only to a narrow band of interests. Next time I meet a UK Ph.D. I'll be sure to quiz them about the history of US land-grant universities—can't recite the Morrill Acts? Then get bent, pal!
Thank you @5:35PM for your concern - you are quite right that this is a risk, I've had a J1 before that came with a two year residency requirement. The International office in question has assured me that the chances of that happening now are low, bc I don't meet any of the standard conditions for applying the 2-year residency rule. Also H1B is not an option, because of the crazy tight timeline for this particular position. So, crossing fingers! My visa interview is next week...
Golly gee, next you'll be telling me that PUBLIC schools in the UK are actually private!1!
Familiarity with how the UK works is part of upper-middle to upper-class US cultural performance. Classics as a FAKE NEWS discipline values this kind of thing as a proxy for real things like scholarship or erudition in relevant areas. Might want to brush up on oenology too.
I submit Eidolon write an article on (performed) class in Classics. Performance of class includes but is not limited to: food and drink preferences, politics (anti-MAGA), dress, familiarity with foreign cultures (preferably British and French - Italy is interesting but full of natives), regional (NE and Silicon Valley) and school (private 2ndary school, SLAC/ivy) preferences.
@12:35 that UT Austin NYU job winner is not a PhD student... he's been out for many years and had a TT job already; a monograph; several prestigious fellowships, etc. He was a finalist at several top places (UCLA, UPenn). So really it's not got much to do with UT Austin (at least now; maybe when he got his first job).
I was so hoping that the UT Austin grad would get the Johns Hopkins gig...
But all around he's a fantastic scholar and very nice guy, so I'm happy for him that he's found a place he wants to go.
What's up with the jobs that have been red for weeks as "offered" but aren't accepted yet? ISAW, Chicago, Michigan... Are these people really still negotiating?
Chicago... is it a failed search (let us Roman historians hope for next year!)?
"Familiarity with how the UK works is part of upper-middle to upper-class US cultural performance."
Like learning a second language (french, ooh) or trying to understand how other people live, think, behave, etc.? I guess to fix the problem we should all try to be even more insular instead of being aware of how our chosen profession looks and works in different countries. Brilliant. I love how we can turn every little thing into class warfare and righteous indignation.
Is it true that ISAW went to the older Cincinnati prof who defended back in 2005(!)? Can anyone confirm?
What about Michigan? Michigan can't catch a break lately with their hires lol
Learning French is definitely part of it! MCGA!
@6:25... i wonder if it's because ann arbor is a midwestern college town. As someone who's been out east for the last 10 years (but knows has roots in the midwest), i honestly would have mixed feelings about accepting a longterm offer from michigan if I had something else on my plate...
What happened with Michigan?
4:20pm says "Performance of class includes... regional (NE and Silicon Valley)... preferences."
And then a case in point at 7:00: "As someone who's been out east for the last 10 years (but knows has [sic] roots in the midwest), i honestly would have mixed feelings about accepting a longterm offer from michigan if I had something else on my plate..."
While on the topic of locations... Chicago vs Baltimore? Chicago itself seems a more vibrant place but it's so landlocked. Baltimore, though perhaps less desirable, is an hour from DC and an hour from Philly...
Chicago murder rate is record setting - 4,331 shooting victims with 762 murders in 2016. If Mayor can't do it he must ask for Federal help!
I like Baltimore, but whenever you have to characterize a place as being "only x amount of time from city x," then that already indicates that the other places nearby are better. Chicago, on the other hand, has literally everything you could want in terms of food, culture, etc. It's about as big as I can stomach large cities, anything bigger is just diminishing returns.
@ 5:51 PM
"Familiarity with how the UK works is part of upper-middle to upper-class US cultural performance."
Like learning a second language (french, ooh) or trying to understand how other people live, think, behave, etc.? I guess to fix the problem we should all try to be even more insular instead of being aware of how our chosen profession looks and works in different countries. Brilliant. I love how we can turn every little thing into class warfare and righteous indignation."
The vast majority of people in Classics have not earned their doctorate from a British school and will never teach in one, so it is not surprising that most are not apprised of the ins-and-outs of the UK university system. Acting shocked that people don't know the peculiarities and equating the possession of such knowledge to knowing a foreign language or being worldly or something is flat-out stupid. I say this as someone who knows people who did go to Oxford who literally never shut up about the fact that they went to Oxford.
@April 24, 2018 at 8:26 PM
"Chicago murder rate is record setting - 4,331 shooting victims with 762 murders in 2016. If Mayor can't do it he must ask for Federal help!"
I know (I hope) that you're being facetious but the "Chicago is a flaming hellscape where you walk out the door and get shot" narrative is only parroted by ignorant rubes. The violence in Chicago is concentrated in a handful of neighborhoods and is an outgrowth of the increasing desolation of those neighborhoods thanks to segregation, lack of development, and sub-par public schools. The situation existed before the current mayor, shitbag Rahm Emanuel ever set foot in office, but he's done jack squat to fix anything. Chicago has a long history of shitty politicians.
@8:47, Michigan has had two tenure-track placements so far this year.
@8:26, now you're just quoting the shitgibbon. Chicago's a big town. Big-town stuff happens. Any half dozen other major cities are in similar circs.
@2:24PM LOL
may I add some actual MCGA points in place of the "MCGA!" troll who seems to think that MCGA people are a bunch of Ivy League white men in tweed jackets saying "Good show!" (that was a funny line though, I commend you for that, "MCGA!" troll):
-American job market for the Americans (Trudeau's Canada has protectionist measures, so why can't we?)
-British job market for the British, Italians, Germans, and if they can stand them, the French.
Point number 1 would benefit all American born job candidates, including POC. People have pointed out, for example, how affirmative action for POC tends to help non-American born POC but not the actual African Americans whom we are trying to make it up to for that whole slavery thing.
It's economic civic nationalism, baby!
@8:33 not understanding that 8:26 is doing a brilliant satire. Should be ashamed and read twitter more often. Very unfair!
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