Until we figure out how to deal most effectively with the wiki vandalism, feel free to provide updates in the comments here.
A new wiki has also been established. See the post above for directions and password.
In your comment please note exactly which position(s) you are updating, if possible just cut and paste from the job-search page.
497 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 497 Newer› Newest»Wellesley has checked in with emails asking for APA interviews.
As to Wellesley: Were the emails for APA interviews for Archaeology or the TT Latinist?
"As to Wellesley: Were the emails for APA interviews for Archaeology or the TT Latinist?"
The Wiki put it under archaeology.
And now I can offer one answer to the time-worn question: What is the deal with the MC jobs?
Answer: The deal . . . has nothing to do with me.
Would any of you lucky interviewees like to weigh-in on the Bryn Mawr and Wellesley jobs? Hellenists? Romanists? Bit of both?
I don't know how you MC people do it. This is my second year in a TT historian position and first year on a SC and the competition is brutal. In my non-specialist observation, many of the most competitive applicants are archaeologists in TT generalist positions who are looking to jump into a specified MC position for the first time. This makes it tough for recent MC grads to compete unless they have some sterling letters or field experience that resonate with SC members who are largely non-MC people.
Ugh, I don't know if this site can take another breakdown from "the other finalist" again.
Re: Bryn Mawr / Wellesley. Know of a couple Romanists for both, but think both schools are inviting Hs and Rs.
The Wiki shows Wellesley has emailed about the archaeology job. Any Latinists hear something yet?
re: anonymous 1 and 2 above on difficulty of MC market, from candidate ('nothing to do with me') and search committee ('brutal') perspective.
Word. It helps to have kick-ass ancient languages. But as far as I can tell, there is only one golden ticket to the Big Dance: having a dig.
What MM said:
Best weapon in a MC candidate's arsenal (if you are applying to a Classics dept) is (1) having taught both Greek and Latin in grad school and (2) displaying the ability and willingless to do so.
I promise you this. It is not that we are necessarily going to ask you to second third year Greek if you are a Roman MC person. But (1) assuming you once passed your PhD exams, and if you didn't you'd better not tell us now, you should be able to teach second year Greek. So you have to prepare? Ok. No worries. We don't expect you to be ready to teach Plato on a moment's notice.
But if it comes up, the only answer is "I've never taught second year Greek, but I am completely open to it."
That is your answer.
And if you are applying to a dept with a grad program, your seminar—the one that has nothing to do with your diss, and that you'll be ready to discuss at the interview—will in some way integrate ancient texts.
Don't sweat the excavation. If you have one, great. If the dept has one and wants you to join in / help support it, great. Not all depts are looking for excavations. They can be a royal pain in the ass, believe me.
Almost all MC people should have much more confidence in their languages than they do. Language competence should be an essential part of any MC PhD person's training. Very few depts have the resources / will get the go ahead from the dean to make a hire of someone who cannot at least help pick up the slack with beginning languages. It would be nice, but we all have to wear a bunch of different masks these days—even in the biggest depts.
So, guys. Take our your Wheelock and your HQ, have something sensible to say about each. Pick one second year Latin text with a commentary, and one second year Greek. Austin's pro Caelio is a reasonable choice for Latin (there are also simpler readers, one of Horace and someone else another another... oh hell. Of someone else. Roman guy); for Greek, you can't go far wrong answering "Xenophon" or picking something from the Bryn Mawr commentaries.
Hey! I was answering with Xenophon before you made it fashionable for this coming meetings. Now my answer won't be appreciated...
Or easier yet, just apply to jobs at the CAA. That's what I did and I'm halfway to tenure review.
Good advice - I guess SCs truly are looking for philologists who just happen to get a little dirty in the summers (or did at one time).
I've taught Greek and will get to Latin next summer before my final year of grad school and the ideology behind this is just freakin' depressing. I think I'm going to dig a hole in the sand and stick my head in it. Maybe the Carthaginians will disappear and I won't get hamstrung.
"Take you Wheelock and your HQ..."
Actually taking those would hurt one in some departments that have a different approach to language teaching!!
The very narrow knowledge of language pedagogy with which many PhDs emerge from grad school is unfortunate. From the SC side it appears that grad students are completely left to their own and wind up taking the most obvious route, and the most obvious route isn't necessarily the most desirable. If I could reform one aspect about graduate education in this country it would be the neglect of preparing students to teach first-year languages.
So today's lesson from a Senior Scholar is: learn something about language textbooks other than than Wheelockiana, and approaches other than drill-based pedagogy. Even if you don't believe in the other way, know it exists and be able to discuss it.
Well, with that attitude it's obvious that whatever ideas you or a minority of your advisors put into your head, no matter how well-intentioned, are misguided at best and dangerous at worst. Listen to the majority of you advisors and follow the right path, and you'll have a chance at a job next year. Otherwise, get ready to start chasing your tail for the rest of your career.
Okay, this is getting silly.
Yes, the prospects for archaeologists can be circuitous at times, but no one is guaranteed to be "chasing their tail" just as no one is totally immune from it in life. There are plenty of archaeologists who get jobs without the trial-by-language fire.
Does it help to be a cunning linguist and instructor? Immensely, I would be lying if I said it didn't. Just be prepared to get a wealth of teaching experience, even if your situation is year-to-year, and you should catch on within 5 years, even if it's not your location or position of choice. Yes, it's not ideal, but that comes with the territory, I'm afraid. You're getting to do something you presumably have a passion for and get paid for it. Good luck.
With all respect to the Senior Scholar (Anon. 1:31 PM), if our discipline would first admit to the gross double-standard that exists, then maybe we can all discuss the finer points of Latin and Greek pedagogy. What about the battalions of Greek and Latin PhDs who are produced without being required to have any real familiarity with the history and culture of the ancient world? How equitable can our discipline be when many - including numerous posters on this blog - expect specialized archaeologists to teach upper level Greek and/or Latin courses (into the 3rd and 4th undergraduate semesters), yet the literature counterparts to said archaeologists could not adequately teach even a first semester survey course in a basic topic of Mediterranean archaeology? We can argue all we want about what archaeologists and philologians should be trained to do, but until we admit the broken, Victorian-era biases that still govern this discipline, little (or no) progress can be made. Truth is, ug students are attracted to many topics in the ancient world, and rightly so; colleges and universities should utilize faculty strengths to expose students to as many aspects of the past as possible rather than penalizing the minority group in the faculty simply because they are different and because the language people (usually more numerous and with more power) consider the research and training of archaeologists to be inferior. But no one wants to admit these facts or have any sort of serious conversation about disciplinary self-awareness lest it lead to an all-too-brutal reality check.
If you are interviewing somewhere, it's a good idea to check out the department's website to see if you can't possibly figure out what textbooks they use currently or have used in the past for GReek and Latin and then familiarize yourself with it. Also, DO NOT disparage one approach to language teaching (like, say, the reading method using Athenaze) in an interview. It may be that one person on the committee really likes that approach and book but just happens to not be teaching intro that year.
Bless my soul, anon 1:52 (number 1). Is there actually a senior archaeologist roaming these threads? Kudos and hats off to you and your indefatigable career.
colleges and universities should utilize faculty strengths to expose students to as many aspects of the past as possible
I think one thing that keeps slipping under the radar here is that many departments are simply not large enough to do this. In the other post, someone asked what their ideal breakdown of philology/history/archaeology would be for a 10 person department. What about a 4 or 5 person department though? 10 faculty is a large department and if someone has that many, they should definitely be able to utilize everyone's strengths. But smaller departments means that everyone is always teaching outside their strengths and since most of us will actually end up working in smaller departments, we need to be prepared for that. I'm in a department with two historians, an archaeologist and a philologist. Guess who teaches the majority of the language classes from beginning to advanced? The historians. Why? Well, its better than teaching myth, frankly. With 4-6 people in a department, it is really hard to get to teach more than one class per term or even year that is in our specializations.
"I'm in a department with two historians, an archaeologist and a philologist."
Holy cow, I don't think I've ever even heard of a department with this composition let alone see one in action.
You have to love the anonymity of the internet. Anonymous 1:52 number 2, I would like to hear you say that to my face if I were your advisor.
If I were his or her advisor, I would welcome his or her comments proudly.
Anonymous 1:52 number 2 made me remember someone with whom I went to grad school a few years back (in a top program with very little faculty oversight of graduate instructors, giving us a bit more freedom than some of us were ready for). The guy was Mr. Literary Theory and worked on Greek poetry, and when the time came for him to teach a course on Greek CIVILIZATION, he went the entire semester never showing a single slide, and never lecturing on architecture, archeology, etc. How does one teach Greek Civ without talking about the Parthenon?!?
The department did require grads to take a certain number of courses on archaeology/material culture, so the fault lies much more in the individual than the department.
But some people like this are out there...
Anon 2:46, this is a perfect example of Classics departments fulfilling their own narrowly-defined antiquated mission rather than that of today's higher education. When, oh when, will deans and administrators step in and put a stop to this outdated nonsense?
For what it's worth, folks, the subjects of these last few messages are also being covered in the "Professional Developments" section, which was set up for that very purpose. Can we keep this section just for specific job gossip, please?
Well, I teach "Greek Civ" as a lit class because that's what is was supposed to be (not history-lite) but someone in the registrar's office didn't like "Lit and Culture." But we (I) teach a separate Greek history class that is called "Greek History."
I had a prof in grad school who taught "Roman Civ" using only Plutarch's lives of great Romans.
"he went the entire semester never showing a single slide"
Crikey, with the way hiring practices work these days, no wonder why some students think that even their resident "archaeologist" is about as interesting as a oat bran wafer.
Can we keep this section just for specific job gossip, please?
Due to complaints and charges of slander, I don't think we're welcome to discuss job gossip anymore.
Well, I teach "Greek Civ" as a lit class because that's what is was supposed to be (not history-lite) but someone in the registrar's office didn't like "Lit and Culture." But we (I) teach a separate Greek history class that is called "Greek History."
Why don't you just teach civ as a cross between history and art history/anthropology. It is a civ course so you should probably discuss things like state formation and the concept of complex societies. Plus it's much easier to interest people with anecdotes when slides are involved.
To me, the entire classics job search for an archaeologist seems to entail a trick-us-into-believing-that-you-are-one-of-us strategy, a nice skill to have but probably not one with a huge correlation to success as a scholar.
Naw, it's more like, "you are one of us, now prove it." Which would be fine if "us" wasn't so narrowly defined to the neglect of other skills which are just as objectively valid when it comes to understanding the classical world.
Sheesh, now every interview I have where a SC member has read this thread will hammer me with questions about my upper level Greek. Can't we begin the revolution after I get my job?
"I would like to hear you say that to my face were I your advisor."
Never likely to happen, because no one with a brain and/or a shred of dignity would choose you as an advisor.
And this is coming from an advisor of nearly 20 years.
Do many (most?) archaeologists feel that they lead a dichotomous life between 'classics' and archaeology?
It is a civ course
Nah. It was originally (many years ago) called "Greek Literature in Translation" and was supposed to be a lit survey class. The decided to change the name, I suppose, to make it more "snazzy." When I came to the department (I'm just visiting), I was told that is was supposed to be lit. I use images in class (images from pottery for plays, for religion, maps) but those are just to help illustrate the literature and give context. I was told that the actual "civ" class was the history one. I would like the word "civilization" removed from course titles myself. Its too ambiguous and abused.
Can we keep this section just for specific job gossip, please?
Due to complaints and charges of slander, I don't think we're welcome to discuss job gossip anymore.
I think we can gossip about jobs. Asking about the Hellenist and Romanist breakdown for the Wellesley interviewees, for example. Ahem. So, what is the deal there? Any Hellenists get the call? I thought this was an underwater position. Any word?
Accusing departments of insider hiring, or false advertising, however, is strictly verboten.
I'm wondering the same things as well, as I'm an underwater archaeologist who didn't get an interview (Late Antique).
At the risk of getting called out, I think the entire thing smells fishy, and I didn't apply for the position. It sounds like some big time donor is trying to pull the strings a bit behind the scenes and the department is trying its best to play along without violating any hiring compliances. I can't imagine that it's very easy. I venture to guess that this was a contributing reason to why the same search last year bombed.
If that is the case then I really feel for the SC at Wellesley. It is hard enough to run a search without having a donor involved. And don't worry about getting called out. It can smell fishy without having any of the people involved acting in bad faith. It is just frustrating to throw one's hat into the ring and come up bupkis when on paper you seem like a perfect fit.
Fellow INA Grad! Hello! (I think I know who you might be, but anyway). You didn't get one either. How is that?
Goes to show you never know. SCs cast their net out wide to snag a good pool, but they often have a more specific idea of what they're looking for in the back of their mind. At least, this has been my experience on SCs.
So for those fretting about their quantity of interviews, you never know. You might be the living embodiment of what was knocking around the back of a SCs mind - one offer is all it takes.
Princeton TT Hellenist
APA interview notification 12.16.07 (em)
A nice treat on this snowy Sunday...
Didn't they teach you in kindergarten that it's not polite to enjoy treats unless you can share them with the rest of the class?
Classes aren't in session on Sundays...
Has anyone heard whether Irvine is interviewing at the APA?
Has anyone heard anything at all from William and Mary (T-T Roman archaeology / art) ??
Glad to see that the confusion with the Dartmouth 2-year VAP position has been cleared up.
I heard Irvine is NOT interviewing at the APA, but that was third hand (perhaps here, even).
According to the Wiki Irvine is interviewing for the VAP MC Search.
MC Search. Wasn't he one of the original members of the band 3rd Bass?
So, unless you all can throw down some serious words, you have no chance at Irvine.
I just got an email from UCLA saying they'd be in touch soon about the status of my application for the asst prof position - but the wiki has said for a week now that interviews have been requested, and I'm very happy with the number of interviews I have...anyone know what's going on?
On another note, has anyone noticed far less (directly communicated) rejection this time around? I've only gotten one rejection letter. The wiki lists barely any rejection letters or emails. Are SCs now counting on the wiki to get out the news?
yeah, I got the UCLA email too. Administrative screw-up? covering all their bases? playing games with the wiki-obsessed?
The UCLA committee only just realized they needed candidates to fill out the equal opportunities survey, so they're emailing people now and disingenuously getting their hopes up even though they've already selected their shortlist of candidates for interview. Not good practice.
Anonymous 8:49,
I haven't noticed a difference. My recollection is that most rejections came after the conference. I've only received rejection e-mails or letters from about 25% of the places I applied to, but am sure that many of the ones I know about through the wiki will comes only after those places have actually signed their choices to contracts.
Regarding those affirmative action forms, I don't mind filling them out, but find it mind-boggling that a few places expect candidates to provide their own postage. I haven't seen that this year, but have in the past, and figure there must be a few this year, too. I used to trash those without a shred of guilt.
The WIKI VANDAL has left a manifestobr/>
Brilliant, huh?
I don't get the "manifesto". Maybe if I redirected my energies toward deleting Wikis instead of searching for a job, everything would be clear.
Unemployment = Absolute Consciousness?
Sisyphus' response is a good read.
I noticed a lot of talk about UCLA up-thread, but does anyone have the dope on the one or two lectureships they're advertising in the January ads? My first reaction was that they're hedging their bets on the assistant prof. hire.....
UCLA:
No, they offer these one-years pretty often, and sometimes even just one-term gigs. I bet these are the same deal, and have no relation whatsoever to the TT hire, don't worry.
In our searches we send out rejections only after a contract is signed -- as late as March sometimes. Things change and (to risk seeming cliched) it's just never over until its over. I know it's not a good thing to be left hanging, but we don't want to reject folks prematurely. Once or twice we have gone back into the pool after the meetings.
I understand that files remain open until the search is officially closed, but I think the courteous thing to do is to notify candidates that they have not been selected for a preliminary interview. This shouldn't be a burden if email is used.
re: UCLA TT Junior position
Could it be that the SC contacted a small number of applicants to arrange interviews and is meeting again to decide on more? I'm sure that an open search at an excellent school netted gobs (150+ ?) applications.
I don't buy the explanation about EEOC compliance.
re: Anonymous 11:12
I'm sorry, but this is just not how search committees behave. The people with APA interviews have already been notified. The rest are in the 'still in with a chance if ALL the APA interviewees suck' position. UCLA hadn't contacted any candidates apart from those on the shortlist, so they have to send out the equal opportunities notification now, ethical considerations notwithstanding.
re: Blankety Blank 1:21 pm
You seem like you have insider information about the UCLA junior search. Is this true?
I am not at all affiliated with UCLA, nor do I have insider info, but what Blankety Blank says is absolutely true. in general. The EEOC cards MUST be sent, especially in the case of a major state university like UCLA.
Don't make this more complicated than it appears!
re: Anonymous 1:41
No, I don't have inside information. This is a rumors site. I was just responding to the suggestion that a search committee might notify people of interviews before it had drawn up a full shortlist. As UCLA hadn't contacted non-shortlisted applicants previously, they were required by law to ask them to fill out the questionnaire now. And of course everyone is still theoretically in with a chance, as a previous poster said. Some institutions would mention that the shortlist has been drawn up and that you are not on it (see above on Penn State). UCLA chose not to do that, and they are of course quite entitled to withhold that information, even if that gets people's hopes up. We may not like it, but it's perfectly legal.
University of Oregon campus invite for interview for between Jan. 14-Feb 8. 12-18-07 (em)
Did it ever occur to you that we might have a new and not very efficient staff member in charge of logging the 180+ applications to the UCLA job, sending out the 180+ EEOC forms, and compiling the list of 180+ emails that the SC committee is using to contact all those who need to do EEOC forms, including will not be interviewed?
Please give SCs the benefit of the doubt instead of leaping to slander them.
Did it ever occur to you that we might have a new and not very efficient staff member in charge of logging the 180+ applications
This was, actually, my first thought so don't despair. But, I seem to be less of an alarmist than many of the people populating this blog.
Whew! [wipes brow]. Yet another intriguing and troubling academic mystery solved, and just in the nick of time!
:-)
I for one still don't buy the explanation. Something very fishy going on here. I think the vandal has realized he can cause more trouble by disinformation than by deletion.
Everyone says that UCLA got 180 applications. Is that true or just a conjecture? I know committees routinely get over 100 these days, but 180 seems like a lot for our field.
One school advertising for two generalists supposedly got over 500 applications a year or two ago.
180 for an open field search is about right. I recall SFSU getting that many when they did an open field search 4 or 5 years ago.
180 for an open field search at UCLA?
Actually sounds almost low to me. I would have bet around 225-250.
So, with a new staff-person, end of term grading, etc. etc. etc., I feel for the poor SC.
Since the Wiki Vandal is vandalizing everybody, not just classics, the idea that they are on the blog makes little to no sense.
Let's quit beating up on poor UCLA. They are good folks, so let's accept the explanation at face value and move on.
Anon. 10:29 was a joke.
Yes, the odds are daunting, but don't be in awe of the numbers too much. At a school like UCLA, I'm sure they get a bunch of applicants already in TT jobs.
From my experience, less desirable positions more representative of the "average" job out there usually hover around 100. One R1 I know advertising for a Latinist got <80. One SLAC got <60. I wouldn't be surprised if top schools like UCLA getting ~200 apps per position actually have <150 looking for their first TT job.
Oops! Didn't get it. Sorry
Move along folks, and please ignore the idiot standing in the middle of the street.
UT-Austin last year, who advertised for archaeologists, historians, AND philologists, Greek or Latin, for two jobs, got over 300.
I don't believe the story about 500 applications.
The other numbers people mention aren't so surprising for searches where the specialization is entirely open, since even narrower searches regularly draw over 80 apps.
So it looks like the first job offer has been made.
Augustana College
One lucky person's APA will be all beer and cigars. Congratulations!
It's been offered, but has it been accepted? If not, the person is likely hunting for bigger game.
Yes, but what sort of time will Augustana give them to decide? Until February or March? Not likely.
This, of course, gets at the problem of these earlier timetables. Let's say the dean at Augustana gives the person two weeks to decide (a reasonable amount of time). And then let's say they accept the offer on Jan. 1. Are they (the candidate) then duty-bound to cancel their APA interviews?
Part of me says "yes", part of me says "no". If this wasn't such a ridiculously competitive process I would argue that they are obligated to retract their candidacy from all other searches. But what the heck, Augustana pretty much forced them into this game, and it is not like that was made clear in the initial APA advert. It seems that by doing this Augustana is running the risk that their top-choice will later bail on them if they receive a better offer later in the spring.
So, and many advance apologies to the very real person wrestling with the very real decision, and also to the very real, and no doubt great faculty at Augustana involved, what do people here think?
We talked about this dilemma as a hypothetical in earlier threads, but now here it is, staring us in the face!
I know a few people who have rescinded their acceptance of a job after getting a better offer. I'm not sure it's so uncommon. The Augustana search was weird from the get-go, in my opinion.
Weird indeed. They didn't interview me.
Seriously though, the "lucky" person's next step depends upon how many regular APA interviews s/he has and if s/he is content with the job at Augustana. If this is their dream job, then there is no point in going any further; if not, then s/he might wish to see what else is out there.
A bird in the hand...you know?
Personally, I'd take the job, go to my other interviews, and see where they landed me. I'd have no problem backing out of the position later, or using it to bargain my salary up at another place, or another place's offer to bargain my salary up there. I'd also stand firm that the university had to offer my pet health insurance.
If they follow their usual pattern, the Centro will offer their jobs the last day of the conference...I know it's just a one-year, but it's nice to know in early January that you've already got something to fall back on. Their hiring process was by far the most congenial I've ever been a part of.
You have a pet health insurance?
*Rim shot*
Sorry.
Give me a pet with life insurance and I'll take the job.
Augustana's search seems quite similar to Monmouth College's search last year. They offered the job before APA (requiring that the candidate sign a contract before APA), but in the end could not get anyone to accept the deal.
You must have gotten the job at the Centro, Anon. 6:01 PM. They do very few interviews for those positions, as I hear, and yet they leave a few months between the interview and the rejection letter. Not too polite, in my view.
You're right, I did get the Centro job (one of the most rewarding possible, I might add). I didn't claim the process was good for anyone but me. But they were absolutely incredible with me, w/r/t being willing to wait for me to hear from other programs, as well as other "negotiables." All I can say is that if they commit to hiring you, they will be as good as they possibly can be to you.
Cal State-Sacramento (T-T Ancient History). Job Offer - 12.20.07
Would the last poster (re Sacramento job offer) be willing to say whether or not it is an inside candidate who got the offer?
Re: Sacramento. The person is not an inside candidate.
To the Cal-State Sac offer poster:
When is the deadline for deciding on the offer? Is it before APA? Is this another Augustana situation?
Hmm... these market trends grow curiouser and curiouser...
Did Sac even advertise through the the APA service? If not, they are only circumventing the AHA, not the APA.
Not even the AHA, they only posted through h-net, back in August.
I am pleasantly surprised that nobody yelled at me for musing about accepting an early job and continuing on the market. I thought this was considered bad form.
I wish there were a way around this dilemma. Perhaps the schools that decide to accelerate the hiring schedules like this are aware of the risk, and willing to live with it. But I assume that I'd be annoyed to see my newly-hired colleague interviewing at the APA. I'd think that more powerful/prestigious places would be more likely to engage in this behavior. If somewhere like Princeton or Chicago were to nab their top candidate early then it seems unlikely that they'd have to worry about losing her to a later suitor.
But all in all, I think it is a bad trend. It will be interesting to see what happens in the Spring. Are there any other schools on the express schedule yet?
Rutgers University (T-T General)
APA interview notification - 12.20.07 (em)
Drusilla,
Personally, I think it's a terrible think for a person to accept an offer and keep looking, and would question the character of anyone who would do that. And it does sometimes happen: I know of a case in which someone accepted a one-year position from an excellent program, but then two weeks later ditched them when Princeton came calling with a similar offer. To me, someone who backs out of an oral or written agreement for no reason other than self-interest has a character flaw, and I would remember it in the future.
If someone receives an offer before the conference, the school making that offer would be unreasonable to insist on an answer right away so long as that person has other interviews. If the school is acting unreasonably, then perhaps it's a warning sign.
Drusilla,
Personally, I think it's a terrible think for a person to accept an offer and keep looking, and would question the character of anyone who would do that. And it does sometimes happen: I know of a case in which someone accepted a one-year position from an excellent program, but then two weeks later ditched them when Princeton came calling with a similar offer. To me, someone who backs out of an oral or written agreement for no reason other than self-interest has a character flaw, and I would remember it in the future.
This seems like a no-brainer. The person acted badly. I think this happened to both Bucknell and Lawrence last year, for TT jobs. It was awful. But what I am talking about is different, because of the difference in timing.
If someone receives an offer before the conference, the school making that offer would be unreasonable to insist on an answer right away so long as that person has other interviews. If the school is acting unreasonably, then perhaps it's a warning sign.
But do you really think most of these schools (Augustana being the most salient example now) are going to give their candidate until sometime in Jan., or even Feb., to decide? What would you do if faced with this problem? This puts the candidate in a completely unfair situation.
Now, if they had said in their job ad that they were going to run the search this way, then fine. But they didn't!
So, really, what would you do? Accept and cancel all of your other APA interviews? I am only arguing this side half-heartedly, because I really don't know, but I do think we have to come up with some guidelines and thought experiments, because it is getting more and more common.
Drusilla,
Gotcha. I think that in such a situation I would tell the school making me an offer that I have X interviews lined up at the APA, and owe it to myself to find out whether I am in the running. And at those interviews (or soon after) I would let those schools know that I have an offer elsewhere, and would be very grateful if they would let me know whether I'm still in the running. While never in the position you describe, I HAVE been in a situation in which a department very generously gave me time to find out about whether I would also be receiving an offer from another, recognizably better, place.
Most people in hiring positions do seem to be reasonable, despite the claims by some on this blog.
In my view accepting an offer, and then rescinding it, makes one lower than scum, regardless of the conditions. Justifying it by blaming the college for "circumventing the APA" is dime-store sophistry. The APA system is a joke and if more SCs circumvented it everyone would be better off (accept perhaps the small handful of top universities who are used to having the luxury of picking a candidate while everyone else is forced to sit around on their thumbs). If you aren't happy to accept a job at Augustana College, just say no thank you and keep looking. Otherwise, sign on the dotted line and have a stress-free vacation.
Dear Dr. Hater of Dime-Store Sophistry,
"Circumventing the APA" is not what is at issue here.
If more and more schools move to an earlier interviewing and hiring schedule what do you think might be some downsides, from the applicants' point of view?
Personally, I would love to skip the APA and stay at home with my family, and had I gotten an offer from Augustana I would be jumping with joy. I agree with Drusilla, however, that there are larger issues we need to think about.
I not only don't see how "if more SCs circumvented [the APA] everyone would be better off", but I think it bodes ill for all of us, SCs and applicants alike.
Don't be such a two-cent Pollyanna.
And what about the SC that, knowing a candidate has signed a contract with a different school, invites them on campus and makes an offer anyway? Like attracts like.
So what institutions are we still waiting to hear from? If they don't inform by tomorrow, I can't imagine that many would inform before the meetings.
Sacramento made it clear in their initial phone interviews that the selected candidate would be expected to make his or her decision within about two weeks of the offer and so around the time of or just after the APA and AHA. They said this is because their department is conducting four history searches this year, two in the fall, and two in the spring. I can see how interviewing for four positions at one time on the regular clock would be problematic for them. I'm not the one who got the offer and I don't envy that person's decision but I would also adopt a take-it or leave-it approach.
I'm surprised that nobody on the wiki has heard from Chicago about the Hellenist position. Their deadline was 11/15. Is it possible they had such a short short-list that none of the people happened to be using the wiki?
Is it possible they had such a short short-list that none of the people happened to be using the wiki?
I was wondering the same thing about OSU with its 11/1 deadline.
I know of one person who has received a request for a conference interview at U. Chicago for the Hellenist position.
I guess if you're absolutely certain of that, there would be nothing wrong with posting it on the wiki, even if you're not the interviewee?
Jeez, you guys still don't seem to get the difference between an inside candidate (VAP applying to a TT job in their current department) and an "inside candidate", i.e. an Anointed One.
The former is common, and is often harder on and a disadvantage to the insider. The latter is a sham, a set-up, the fix is in, going through the motions, notasearchatallintherealsenseoftheword.
Define your terms more clearly already!
Oops! Sorry! This was supposed to go in the Scuttle-butt thread.
My apologies!
Ashland University (T-T Ancient history)
Phone interview request (phone) 12/21 for 2nd week of 01/08.
Has anyone heard from either Arizona positions? Did any Roman archaeologists make the cut for the material culture position?
I am so confused about the Dartmouth 2-year. I only applied for it, not the Latinist TT or the Arch 1-year. It would be nice if they would actually tell those of us in this situation if they are even going to be considering our apps.
re: Dartmouth 2-year VAP
WTF?
I applied for this too, but I haven't gotten a letter or an email about any decisions.
I can understand why they wouldn't want to interview for this or the 1-year archaeology position at the APA. Presumably they have their hands full with the TT Latinist search. Still - WTF?
Anon. 6:16:
On behalf of dime-store sophists everywhere, I take offense.
re: "very nice rejection email from UCLA"
I have been rejected by UCLA twice and both times the letters were extremely kind. But since I am in a position to compare, I'd have to say that Bob Gurval wrote a better one.
Professor Blank was kind to point out how good my application was, but by saying that 170 people applied, I was forced to recognize that circa 160 other candidates received the same praise.
Not a serious criticism, which I will prove by placing an 'emoticon' in my comment. ;-) (I hope I did that right)
"Has anyone heard from either Arizona positions?"
The wiki shows notification for the Latinist position on the 21st - not sure about the MC position.
So, according to the most recent email from the placement service, it sounds like neither Arizona nor Toronto will interview at AIA for the MC positions. I suppose that's not too surprising coming from either of those schools/programs. I need a break from the "refresh" button anyway.
That's not necessarily the case. Plonski's e-mail does not rule out that some schools submitted lists of interviewees to her without notifying the candidates themselves, as happens not infrequently. That, for example, might be what's happening with Chicago, Ohio State, and Columbia.
Personally I was stunned that Plonski would send an email like that to everyone, with everyone's email addresses there.
Now we know who's on the market, even those who might have been quietly trying to change jobs....
Yeah, anybody else tempted to hit "reply all" to that?
What was she smoking?
"So, according to the most recent email from the placement service, it sounds like neither Arizona nor Toronto will interview at AIA for the MC positions."
How do you deduce this from the email?
Nice, Plonski.
Good thing we didn't use her name as the password for the wiki...
I was wondering if I was the only one who could see all the addresses. That has to be a mistake, in fact a major blunder. I see at least three people on there who probably don't want their job hunt to be public information, and that's just from my circle of acquaintances.
I'm a Roman archaeologist and I just talked with a friend who's a Greek historian and together we picked out over a dozen names that wouldn't want their names public. The question is whether it gets back to their departments since this email didn't get to them unless they were doing their own search.
I hope Renie still has a job after this as the email was sent to the president of the APA!
Yet another reason why the APA job service is a joke. If SCs simply conducted their searches/interviews
independently it would be possible, at least in theory, for us to maintain our anonymity.
"So, according to the most recent email from the placement service, it sounds like neither Arizona nor Toronto will interview at AIA for the MC positions."
How do you deduce this from the email?
I took it from RP's email that all the interviews that could be scheduled had been, save the six schools submitting their short lists at the convention. But Anon. 4:04's message was news to me:
some schools submitted lists of interviewees to her without notifying the candidates themselves, as happens not infrequently
I suppose it doesn't matter much either way, though.
"I suppose that's not too surprising coming from either of those schools/programs."
Why is it not surprising that Toronto and Arizona aren't interviewing?
"I suppose that's not too surprising coming from either of those schools/programs."
Why is it not surprising that Toronto and Arizona aren't interviewing?
Oh, I don't know. I just thought that Arizona would be busy already with the Latinist search and Toronto would skip AIA for the MC job like the history job. Just thoughts--no inside info here.
So I got the gong from Washington today and now no Toronto and Arizona. This is a terrible year for MC, but maybe there's something to what an earlier person said about clarchs in generalist TT positionI suppose that's not too surprising coming from either of those schools/programs.s jumping at these. I better brush up on my Wheelock and Hansen and Quinn and revisit these positions AFTER I land a generalist position. I wish someone in grad school told me the "path" I needed to take.
I must only know people on search committees because those are most of the names that are standing out for me.
Anon. 6:58:
I wouldn't get ahead of the situation. There are still a few MC places to hear from, regardless of their plans to interview at/after AIA. You're still in it!
Not every SC member should have gotten the email. It should have been the contact person, who is usually the chair, but it could also be an administrative assistant.
Thanks, anon 7:06! :-)
Wait, I'm on the mailing list but I didn't get the version where I can see everybody's name. She must have sent more than one email out, and only one was a goof up. But what a humdinger, from the sound of it!
Doh!
Was the email only sent to those who received an interview? I'm an ABD who signed up for the placement service but I didn't receive any interviews nor the email.
Well, I have a couple interviews, so probably not.
Did you not get any sort of email at all explaining the interview (non) scheduling?
Nada.
names on email from renie
Don't worry, folks, many people subscribe to the placement service who are not actively looking for different jobs. I doubt anybody was "outed" and that poor, overworked woman need not worry.
I subscribed to the placement service and have a few interviews but didn't receive an email from Renie about scheduling. Would someone please post it on the blog? Thanks!
You should probably just email Renie.
Have spoken to someone at Arizona re. the archy job and was told that they mailed out letters on Dec. 10 to candidates invited for APA interviews (I was told that I was sent one but it hasn't arrived yet).
May I ask your disciplinary focus? In particular, I'm wondering whether any Roman archaeologists were invited to interview.
Reply to Anonymous 11:23: I'm a Greek prehistorian (anthro/classics background). I haven't heard if any Romanists are being interviewed.
Thanks, anon 11:47. Congrats on the interview!
So I guess Arizona is going with Prehistorians. So who is going to get interviewed? A bunch of people from Texas, Cincinnati, and Bryn Mawr?
I don't get it. Why these three schools?
Well, for the record, I'm a Texas grad and Aegean Prehistorian but I didn't receive an interview.
Does Texas even do archaeology? I guess they do if you count looking at chicken scratch on clay tablets.
they're still coming:
Ohio State (TT-Latinist)
APA interview notification (email)
Crud. Just got my rejection letter for the Seattle Roman archaeology job. Posted that on the wiki.
Crud.
When does one generally hear from places about fly-outs after the APA, assuming one is in the offing?
When does one generally hear from places about fly-outs after the APA
I've heard as soon as at the conference itself and as much as 2-3 weeks after depending on whether the school is semester or quarter and how much control the admin has over approving the choices.
If you have all the principals at the interview, notification can be quite quick. It's more common though for some people who need to be kept in the loop not to be easily reachable. This then leads to a week or two lag time.
It's amusing in the light of the recent email mishap to read in the APA Executive Director's report that 'We are careful to protect the privacy of candidates': http://www.apaclassics.org/Administration/Executive_Director_Report-Dec_2007.html . I have a feeling someone may take him up on that at Chicago.
If you have an interview with a school that is also hosting one of the parties are you expected to attend the party as well?
IF they invite you to the party then go. Otherwise I wouldn't.
After an interview I was invited to such a party an APA or two ago. I knew no one, and was left talking to the chair for 45 minutes. (Couldn't end the conversation gracefully.) Maybe that is why I didn't get a fly-out.
This time around I will go, say hi, and be on my way.
Go to a department's party after an interview? Better to try to get your advisor(s) or letter-writers to go to the party. It's OK if you go, if you know people and can have fun, but I'd be prepared to make all chats with people you interviewed you short and simple, even if you have to pretend to have a need to meet someone elsewhere.
What Seattle Roman archy job? I didn't apply, but I know of at least four Hellenists interviewing, and I've heard rumor of a few more.
Did this listing change, or is this more scuttlebutt?
**McMaster University (1-year Togo Salmon Fellowship/Roman Studies)**
AIA/APA "informal meeting" scheduled 12.31.07
Is there a way to see just the changes on the new version of the wiki? On the old page, I could just see what had been updated in each revision, but I can't seem to find this now.
Thanks!
Yes, you can see the changes on the new wiki as well.
First click the "history" radio button. Then you can click the round radio buttons next to each revision in order to compare one or more page revision.
Then scroll down the screen and the various revisions will be highlighted.
Ohio State University -campus interview notification
UCLA- campus interview notification(01/08/2008)
Florida State just wrote - their search has been canceled by state budget cuts.
I am going to put copies of the two previous comments on the flybacks thread, just to keep them all together.
That sucks about FSU!
NGCSU (Mediterranean History) On-campus Interview Invitation 01/9/08 (phone).
There's an increasing number of differences between the two wikis (pw and nonpw). Someone with too much time on his or hands needs to go in and reconcile them.
Why don't we commit to which ever one is updated more and decommission the other?
Seeing as how the vandal appears to be gone, we should just keep the non-password one because it's much easier. That's my vote.
Not that I have a vote.
Ah, so you want to tear down your city walls because you haven't seen a Vandal in a while?
You must be a philologist. You poor fool! ;-)
No, I'm not a philologist, but even philologists know the wisdom of having city walls. I quote the Hoopoe in Halliwell's translation of Aristophanes' "Birds":
“It’s often from their enemies that wise men learn good lessons. For instance, caution keeps you safe, but friends won’t teach you that. It’s enemies who make us see the value of this point. Or then again, it’s enemies not friends who teach Greek cities the need to build the highest walls, and get themselves good navies. And that’s a lesson which helps preserve their children, homes, belongings.”
In our case, the wall is annoying, so I'm happy to take a chance...
Well, I'm going to keep updating both, because it would really suck to lose all of the info.
Dayton Univ on-campus invite (phone) 01/11/07
I went through and sync-ed most of the two wikis. Hard to focus while constantly refreshing email and wikis.
Columbia Univ. (3-year Roman Hist)
Rejection email/short list notification 1/17/08
West Chester (t-t Ancient history)Campus invitation (ph) 1/18/08
George Washington University (T-T Classical Archaeology) has requested phone interviews for this/ next week (em).
Ashland Univ. Short List/Rejection email 1/23/08
I noticed on the old wiki someone posted "job offered (rumor confirmed)" for the Rutgers position and I'm wondering whether that's in reference to the earlier rumor that it was a sham search (though I have no wish to revive the debate about what a sham search is).
Sham is such an extreme word. It implies that non-insiders had 0% chance of landing the job, which is rarely true. They usually have at least a 1% chance. Let's call it the just-making-sure-we-have-the-right-person search. ;-)
U of Alabama - had an interview at AHA. Was told on 1/18 that they have a bureaucratic hold-up. Anyone else interview for this?
I also met with Alabama at the AHA, but I haven't heard anything either way from them -- I assumed that meant I was out of the running. Did you contact them or did they contact you?
I was also told the same thing about the bureaucratic hold-up. And it was in reply to a thank you note I wrote to the chair for the interview.
UA: I contacted them with a thank you note and the scc informed me of the hold-up.
Has anyone heard from or contacted Hendrix College recently to discover the state of their search?
Has anyone heard anything from or about the following searches:
Denver, Illinois-Springfield, Brooklyn-Long Island, Indiana-Purdue-Fort Wayne, ECLA (Berlin)?
And what about Loyola-Chicago?
Anyone hear from MTSU? The wiki indicates at least 1 person got a phone interview recently. It seems late to be scheduling phone interviews followed by campus invitations. I just assumed they had finished and rejected me without notification.
I had a phone interview with Illinois-Springfield on Monday. They said they were doing phone interviews on the 23rd and 28th of January.
I was the one who posted that I have a phone interview with MTSU. They contacted me via email last week. I had also assumed that I was out of the running -- their ad said they'd be interviewing at AHA, which I don't think they are. They didn't mention anything about the delay, so no idea what's up.
Okay, I meant that I don't think they DID interviews at AHA, not "I don't think they are" re: MTSU. Duh. Might possibly know more after I talk to them tomorrow.
Also, another plea for information about Denver? They said at AHA they were bringing two people to campus last week of Jan/first week of Feb -- I think I have to assume I'm out of it?
Thanks for the info on MTSU. Congrats on the phone interview and good luck. I think I can assume I will not be your competition!
Re: Denver
I also interviewed with them at the AHA, wrote a thank you note and never heard anything back. To me, that sounds like they are a bit behind on schedule. But that's just an intuition, nothing more. We could be both out of the loop, for all I know.
I find it amusing that there is an ad for Rozerem (a prescription sleep-aid) on the wiki. My sleepless nights could be cured by responses from SCs! Has anyone heard anything about anything? It seems like things are slow right now - no updates are being posted.
speaking of slow...anyone heard from lsu? they said end of jan.
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