Until we figure out how to deal most effectively with the wiki vandalism, feel free to provide updates in the comments here.
A new wiki has also been established. See the post above for directions and password.
In your comment please note exactly which position(s) you are updating, if possible just cut and paste from the job-search page.
497 comments:
1 – 200 of 497 Newer› Newest»OK, now there is a link between this and the wiki.
So, to the person who heard from NYU/ISAW. When and how did you hear?
Bryn Mawr College
(T-T Archaeology)
Application Acknowledged
But what about the Huns?
Seriously, thanks Servius. As long as there are more good and helpful people than idiots, we'll win eventually.
U-Michigan (T-T Latinist)
APA interview notification (em) 12/4/07
Georgetown University (T-T Romanist)
APA interview request 12/5/2007
Anon 3:58: was the Bryn Mawr acknowledgement via email?
Hendrix College
APA Interview Notification (em) 12/5/07
To the query about the ISAW notification: a letter came in the mail, informing that someone might be hired this year, or maybe not, and it would probably be a senior hire, but maybe not. Also, that there might be further updates, or there might not be.
Servius,
The vandal struck again, this time setting back the page by about 100 revisions, so I fixed it following your instructions. I know it was the vandal because his IP address was south of DeKalb, Ill. Have you reported this to whoever runs the wikihost site? They might have a way of blocking the person from making changes.
OK, I managed to log into the new site, and I see the wiki itself, but I haven't figured out how to actually edit it!
Any ideas?
Thanks for setting this up. Hopefully everybody will have access to Austin or figure the password out by other means (which is what I did!).
Should we put a link up at the old Wiki which directs everybody to the new one?
Sorry for leaving two posts back to back.
I was the one who put the link between the old Wiki and the Job Search Updates page, and I would be happy to do something like that again. Unless people feel that it would increase the risk of vandalism at the new site as well.
Added that Creighton notified folks by email for an APA interview.
Amherst has invited people for APA interviews via email.
New College of Florida
(T-T Hellenist)
APA interview notification - 12.06.07
Willamette (Ancient History) APA interview notifications (em),12/6.
Stanford (Open Rank Latin)
APA Interviews - 12/06/07
Duquesne University (Generalist/Arch)
Interview request 12/7/07 (em)
Washington University St. Louis -- APA interview request 12.07.07 (em)
University of Buffalo (T-T Greek History)
APA Interview Request (em) 12.7.07
UC Irvine History Jobs??
What is going on there? Are there two jobs (Roman History AND Late Antique) or only one (Late Antique)??
Can somebody please post an informed response?!
Panic Panic
Pomona College (T-T Ancient History)
APA Interview Request (ph) 12.7.07
I'm fairly sure there's only one Late Antique job. The dept may have been unclear in a posting (what led you to think there were two?) as they seem in general to group the entire ancient Mediterranean world pre 800 CE into one category and are looking for someone who can teach all of it.
I think there's some confusion about Irvine because even though the Late Antique job has a deadline of Jan 2, the Dept. seems to be enforcing an earlier deadline, perhaps with a view to interviewing at the APA.
I see The Vandal struck again. But whoever restored the page so quickly limited his impact to a measly 5 minutes. That's awesome. Well done Masked Restorer! Yer my Heeeeero.
Um, I can't figure out the password, sorry. I applied for classics jobs but work mainly on ancient egyptian languages. is there some way i can get access? i e-mailed the classicswiki@gmail.com for an answer. Help!
to the person who wrote about irvine, what's the earlier deadline the dept appears to be enforcing? any news as to when they might contact people about APA interviews for that job? also, this is the same one that went unfilled last year, right? any clue as to why that happened?
So, Irvine went unfilled last year because they deadlocked between two candidates, apparently, and decided to choose neither of them.
The department really wants someone who can teach the whole period from prehistory through early medieval, and they've decided that a late antique specialist is the right way to go there. I'd advise anyone who gets interviews to emphasize strengths in world history and a very broad base of knowledge. They also cared a lot about the writing sample.
Part of the issue may be the generic history department problem of historians from later periods and smaller regions not realizing that there aren't really a lot of ancient historians who do "the whole ancient Mediterranean world."
(Maybe I'm wrong here - feel free to raise your hand anonymously if you are such an expert.)
Last year Irvine skipped the APA, for the record, even though it was in San Diego.
Password question has been handled.
Please email
JobAgora@gmail.com
in the future.
I hope you made sure the person wasn't an imposter by giving the password using hieroglyphs - folded cloth, reed,...mouth.
U-Pennsylvania (T-T Ancient History)
APA interview notification (em) 12.9.07
Oops, sorry that was supposed to be U-Pennsylvania Open Rank - Ancient History (wishful thinking on my part, I guess)
Wait, that wasn't the U-Pennsylvania Open Rank "235-51 B.C. Central and Northern Italy with a Passing Interest in the Cuisine of Early Medieval Malta" History Position?
Damn, I'm completely screwed.
Just kidding, Ralph. Just kidding!
So is anybody else concerned about the lack of wiki posting? Can it be that far too few fellow job-hunters are even aware of the wiki's existence? 31 users seems low to me.
I have told a couple of friends, but I haven't really tried to spread the word. For those of you who are still at your graduate institution, do many of your fellow students know/care/use the wiki? Any ideas on spreading this around more?
Re: Irvine's deadline. They didn't tell me what timeline they're working to. The original deadline was Nov 1, which was changed to Jan 1. They contacted me last week to ask for all my materials in order for me still to be considered. I recommend to anyone interested in the position that they get their stuff in asap.
Has anyone heard whether they'll hold interviews at the APA?
Gettysburg College, T-T Classics & Women's Studies,
APA Interview (em, 12/10)
Purdue (T-T Generalist)
APA interview notification (em) 12.10.07
Wake Forest (T-T Generalist/Latin poetry)
APA interview notification (em) 12.10.07
U-Colorado (T-T Hellenist)
APA interview notification 12.10.07 by phone
Re: aparent low number of users.
I think this site is full of lurkers/folks put off by the vandalism and not bothering to update the wiki counter.
That being said, what is the deal with the material culture jobs? Why have so few scs made decisions? I am consumed by feelings of doom (rejections, failed searches, inside candidates, etc.).
Re: material culture jobs
I think it's largely due to the red-headed stepchild status of these jobs in the classics universe. 99.99% of the time, these searches will take a backseat to any other search in the department. For that matter, it will take a backseat to other seemingly less important departmental housekeeping issues. In my non-scientific observation, I believe this is why so many material culture searches fail.
There are a lot more generalist/philology positions than material culture positions, so therefore there are a lot more preliminary decisions on these positions. McMaster has announced APA interviews, it looks like Toronto (Art and Material Culture/History) and Bryn Mawr are making progress, and many of the Material Culture deadlines (Washington, Wellesley) were in the second half of November. I think that Material Culture people will be hearing back soon. But there are some good Material Culture people on the market this year and very few jobs. It looks like SCs really need generalists anyway, who can do languages, history, and civ courses, in addition to art and archaeology. Has anyone else noticed this?
There are a lot more generalist/philology positions than material culture positions,...many of the Material Culture deadlines (Washington, Wellesley) were in the second half of November...But there are some good Material Culture people on the market this year and very few jobs. It looks like SCs really need generalists anyway, who can do languages, history, and civ courses, in addition to art and archaeology.
All the points you made are par for the course - it's always been this way for MC jobs. The lateness of the announcements might relate to the point Theophilus made.
It's rare enough to find an archaeology position, let alone one where the teaching duties reflect the research interests of the scholar. Greek, Latin, myth, etc. are often the responsibility of archaeologists. In my experience, this stance has more to do with the objectives of a "Classics" department than enrollment. I'm not an archaeologist, but we historians are often in the same boat teaching large survey courses.
Re: material culture jobs
Anon. 5:16 here. I agree with many of the points raised above. I do feel a little put off by the status of archaeologists in the job search, generally, and in some classics departments. In a way, 'classical archaeology' seems like a euphemism for 'designated service course instructor': teach the broad surveys, teach the language courses -- with the goal of creating more majors. I want to add, however, that I would happily be burdened with those responsibilities . . .
The wiki vandal erased everything again. I am trying to restore the wiki, but am having difficulties. Anyone else able to get it working?
West Chester called for AHA interview, 12/10/07.
I say we should just give up on the regular wiki and use the new one.
I was able to get it back up. No, let's keep the original one going, too. Enough of us are online often enough that we can easily restore it with a few clicks when necessary. My reasons are that 1) the original one is the one that is known to everyone; 2) if we let it go down once and for all, it will take too long for most people to learn about the new one; 3) the need for a password, especially one that discriminates against so many job-seekers whose training did not prepare them to figure out the clue that is provided, is much more of a pain in the rear than occasionally restoring the wiki; 4) we can't let the terrorists win.
"I want to add, however, that I would happily be burdened with those responsibilities . . ."
Therein lies the issue - archaeologists willingly accept this second-class status, but it will change. If you look carefully at the classics departments thriving in this economy, they are the ones that either have a sympathetic dean or one with a fair share of archaeologists and historians. I teach at a SLAC in Michigan, and this is plainly obvious in this economic toilet of a state. Grand Valley State University is one of the newest classics departments with several out-of-the-closet archaeologists. The department and the local AIA chapter are thriving. Look at Wayne State University. I heard that they just shut down the department there, what a surprise - basically 3 Latinists and 3 Hellenists with no clue where the Mediterranean is on the map. These dinosaur departments that don't adapt will eventually go extinct as surely as all the Assyriology programs that thrived in the early 20th century. The Bible has been greatly minimized in our culture and classical literature is next.
It depends on the job whether archaeologists get pressed into service or not. They will at small colleges and some universities: but at large R1 universities, such as the three I've taught at, they can refuse to teach Greek and Latin and large intro courses in classical civ with impunity - leaving the philologists and the historians (who seem to get short shrift both ways) to do those big lecture "service courses," which keeps them from doing the type of specialized-
topics-course-related-to-my-research that said archaeologists hold out for. Point is, you can't keep everyone happy all of the time.
Either way, I think the best way to guarantee a job in today's market is to be able to teach the languages, and to be good at it.
Either way, I think the best way to guarantee a job in today's market is to be able to teach the languages, and to be good at it., said Anon 8:04.
I apologize for starting/continuing a debate in a location that's inappropriate for it, but I do want to say: I can't deny the truth of what you write, but I can say that teaching languages is an inappropriate use of the skills of a trained archaeologist or art historian. It doesn't serve students, it doesn't serve the teacher, and it doesn't serve the university, from any rational perspective. Imagine asking a philologist to stand up in front of a class and teach the archaeology of Greece or Rome. They'd be shocked (correctly) by the ridiculousness of such a request. What archaeologists do has now become so complex and specific that we can't just be considered philologists who get dirty every summer.
I'm on the market, but I'm lucky enough not to need a job next year, and I plan to bring this up in at least one interview (should I be so lucky to have the chance). I don't mind teaching huge lecture courses (and I've done it), but specialized courses like languages? Forget it.
Hoss is right that this discussion doesn't belong here--but it is an important discussion. Can a new place be made for it?
Hi All,
Sorry, I hope the wiki issues are taken care of.
First of all, I apologize for such a discriminatory clue. I must admit that it seemed innocuous enough, but at the same time would keep the barbarians out. I didn't mean to keep the archaeologist out as well!
That said, I thought it more important to be "google" proof. What I came up with fit the bill, while at the same time being solvable for the widest possible necessary audience. I do hope you all, archaeologists included, can understand the conundrum I faced, and realize that my solution was not meant to be especially difficult for any one group. So, I am sympathetic to the non-Latinists amongst us, but not sure what else to do.
Personally, I find the conversation you have started here both interesting and necessary. I will create another post and comments section for just this sort of thing. I do hope people join in. I had not heard about the Wayne State department, though I have heard rumblings about similar events at other schools. It is a phenomenon we all, philologists, historians and archaeologists, need to pay close attention to.
I just want to point out that as a philologist who has ha to teach not only Classical archaeology but also history of the NEear East and Egypt, that the best thing to do is accept that people who deal in the ancient world today, be they philologist, historian or archaeologist, need to be able to teach whatever courses departments need in order for departments to survive and expand. I don't like teaching Egypt an the Near East. I don't like teaching Late Antiquity. I'd rather be teaching language classes. But it is what my department needs and so I do it because I can if needed. Maybe we've all become a bit too over-specialized to or own detriment.
Servius,
I'm an Archaeologist myself and I thought the password clue was a simple and elegant fix. I have a hard time taking these complaints from my fellow diggers seriously. You all are applying for jobs cross-listed in the APA and your Latin isn't up to cracking this little chestnut?! We are in deeper shit than I thought possible.
--Dig Dug
As the person who brought up the language issue, I'm migrating this thread over to the new space. Return to the main page and click on Professional Developments to continue the discussion. Job Search Updates should continue here as before.
With regard to the clue, it seems like it would be more user-friendly to have a password that related to the job search rather than to arcana of the field, i.e. the name of the hotel that the convention is in, the last name of the person who sends the placement emails, as has been suggested, or the name of the 2nd APA panel Saturday morning, or whatever.
I know that I haven't been able to access the wiki because I don't own a copy of the Austin and haven't had the time to trek to the library in search of it -some of us being at places without great dept libraries. It's not a matter of ignorance, but of the hassle involved.
Anon 10:14 AM writes:
With regard to the clue, it seems like it would be more user-friendly to have a password that related to the job search rather than to arcana of the field, i.e. the name of the hotel that the convention is in, the last name of the person who sends the placement emails, as has been suggested, or the name of the 2nd APA panel Saturday morning, or whatever.
The problem with all three of these suggestions, and so many others, is that they are much too easy to figure out. Let's Google this search string: [APA classics hotel chicago 2008]. Result, at the very top: Hyatt Regency. [APA classics placement]. Result, 2 clicks into the top link: You Know Who, who is listed as "Placement Director". [APA chicago 2008 program]. Result, 3rd from top, 2 clicks in: a nice PDF of the conference program. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Relying on the "arcana" of the field is precisely the point. First, for those who don't have Austin to hand, isn't it easy to email a friend who does, and ask? If not a friend, send an email to the address provided. I might ask a couple questions in order to make sure you are interested in getting the password for legitimate reasons, but that is pretty painless. Everybody who has asked and responded briefly has walked away with the password.
Now, if somebody sends a request from an account like "Britney1988@yahoo.com", red flags might be raised. So send it from an institutional address.
Again, I didn't choose this clue in order to define the the cool kids club in an overly narrow way. But I have been quite surprised by the number of correspondents claiming that they couldn't figure it out, or, stranger yet, couldn't be bothered.
Re: password
I am an archy without access to a library who at first thought, WTF, how will I ever figure that out?
But in fact if you have internet access it should be very easy, even for an archaeologist (no slight intended, since I *am* an archeologist). Use your research skills! No complaining! And thank Servius for everything s/he has done for us!!!
"Look at Wayne State University. I heard that they just shut down the department there, what a surprise - basically 3 Latinists and 3 Hellenists with no clue where the Mediterranean is on the map."
What is the point of gloating that any department is being shut down? These comments are so hostile (and exaggerated) that all they do is reveal the insecurity of their author. Most archaeologists are aware that no single field is going to save or undermine the study of antiquity. Historians, art historians, archaeologists, and philologists realize the value of each other's work and its complementary nature.
As the one who suggested that the password might be troublesome to some, I would like to state for the record that I am not an archaeologist, am a Latinist, and was even capable of recognizing the name Austin after a few seconds of thought. And I even then used the internet to solve the puzzle in about a minute. That said, I do think it puts an unnecessary burden on some. But at this point, I guess most/all of those who need to know it have learned what it is.
"What is the point of gloating that any department is being shut down? These comments are so hostile (and exaggerated) that all they do is reveal the insecurity of their author. Most archaeologists are aware that no single field is going to save or undermine the study of antiquity. Historians, art historians, archaeologists, and philologists realize the value of each other's work and its complementary nature."
Hear, hear, spoken like a person in the driver's seat. What do you teach? Greek tragedy? Roman social history? Surely not gender studies - that's so 2001.
U-Chicago History Dept., T-T, Roman History (announced by e-mail)
(Hah! I finally get to beat the rest of you to the punch on one of these.)
College of Wooster (T-T Generalist)
APA interview request
snail mail
Virginia Wesleyan
Conducting Phone Interviews
12.10.07
Snail Mail!
Wooo hoooo ster!
That there is Old Skøøl. I løve it!
As the one who suggested that the password might be troublesome to some, I would like to state for the record that I am not an archaeologist, am a Latinist, and was even capable of recognizing the name Austin after a few seconds of thought. And I even then used the internet to solve the puzzle in about a minute. That said, I do think it puts an unnecessary burden on some. But at this point, I guess most/all of those who need to know it have learned what it is.
OK, OK, OK!! I feel like a real jerk now. Thanks! :-) Seriously though, I do see how my being a Latinist led me to make some unfair assumptions about my audience.
For all of those inconvenienced by my password strategy, please accept my humble apologies. And do feel free to email the admin email account if you still need the magic words.
Don't feel bad -- I only piped up again because of those who were lamenting the state of archaeologists' philological training based on my post.
(Of course, there are some archaeologists who do not know their languages as well as they should, but that should not be inferred from my post.)
USC (T-T Later Greek Culture/ Latin Lit)
APA Interview 12.11.07
U-Washington (T-T Archaeology)
APA interview notification (em) - 12.11.07
Texas A&M University (TT General)
APA interview notification 12.11.07 (email)
U-California-Los Angeles (T-T Hellenist)
APA interview notification 12.11.07 (email)
UCLA (TT, listed as Hellenist)
Email interview request 12-11-07
jinx
I beat you to it...
OOC, was UCLA in the end actually looking for a Hellenist?
and would anyone mind sharing if Washington decided to go for Greek or Roman, or both?
Re: UCLA - it seems so, but the senior job is also a factor in determining this...
"and would anyone mind sharing if Washington decided to go for Greek or Roman, or both?"
I heard Roman and there are soome interesting circumstances involved which I will not get into lest I get called out as a slanderer. All I can say is look back on this moment when the person is hired. If it looks suspicious then it's because it was. Enough said.
Re: Washington Job
I heard Roman and there are soome interesting circumstances involved which I will not get into lest I get called out as a slanderer. All I can say is look back on this moment when the person is hired. If it looks suspicious then it's because it was. Enough said.
I have no idea what to think of this, but I wish you would just go ahead and post your thoughts (as tactfully as possible). If there's a legitimate reason for the SC to go with a Romanist--and why not--what's the problem?
btf
re: UCLA Hellenist-Romanist Junior/Senior
What exactly is meant by the hints about divergent interests about the junior position there?
UCLA T-T Junior Position
The field for this job, if you actually read the ad, people, is OPEN.
- A member of the UCLA faculty
Dag -- UCLA put the SMACK DOWN!
You're the big dogs (or bruins, or whatever), now!
Re: Washington job
I heard Roman and there are soome interesting circumstances involved which I will not get into lest I get called out as a slanderer. All I can say is look back on this moment when the person is hired. If it looks suspicious then it's because it was. Enough said.
I have no idea what to think of this, but I wish you would just go ahead and post your thoughts (as tactfully as possible). If there's a legitimate reason for the SC to go with a Romanist--and why not--what's the problem?
I second that request. Without getting into the flame wars that arose re Brekeley, does this mean there is an inside candidate? Or let me rephrase that, since no search committee is foolish enough to have an official inside candidate, does it happen there someone with local ties who needs a job and fits the job description to a T?
Okay, I think I figured it out. It was easier than trying to figure out the password for the secure website. For those of you with Austin at your fingertips, I think it's time for you to do some internet research...
In defense of the SCs, are there truly any positions where subjectivity does NOT play a big role? The classics community is too small and the pool of jobs is even smaller yet. In my relatively small sub-discipline, I could pretty much identify 90% of CVs even without names on the header. I suspect archaeology is the same way.
To the UCLA faculty member -- please don't patronize us. Yes, we read the job advert, but many of us have also learned that job ads don't always tell you what the SC is really looking for. I am not disputing that the UCLA search is open, simply that we often have just cause to be suspicious.
Rather than wasting the time of recent grads, I would almost prefer that SCs discretely go around to junior faculty in TT positions and ask if they are interested. This would waste a lot less time and paper. Yeah, yeah, due diligence in case there's the 1% that can somehow compete against the safe/proven choice.
That's a lot of dead trees for a longshot.
To Anonymous 7:30AM
What did you figure out? What sort of research should we be performing (other than writing this damn article!)?
Re: UW position
I know of at least one Hellenist being interviewed by UW, so I don't understand what all the talk's about. As has been pointed out, all searches are subjective. VAPs and spouses will always need positions, but the fact remains that so-called insiders don't always get the jobs. I’m all for a little harmless gossip on these boards, but I see no point in getting ourselves even more wrecked about the process because someone’s making mountains out of molehills. (I don’t know if any of this applies to the UW situation, of course.)
Once we are all tenured, however, I would like to be a part of the revolution from within. The best, most fair searches ever! No one overlooked for pointless reasons! No accomplishments unrecognized! No ‘open’ searches when a specific senior candidate is desired!
Hahahaha.
If you're that Hellenist or not the right Romanist, good luck! Hahaha!
Dartmouth College (1-year Archaeology) (em)
"We will not be interviewing at the APA/AIA annual meeting in Chicago, but we do expect to conduct phone interviews with a select list of candidates in the late winter or early spring."
U-Toronto (T-T Greek History)
Campus interview notification (em)
**Toronto Greek History**
So Toronto is skipping the APA and moving directly to campus interviews?
Is this how it is normally done, or are they moving this way because it is a particularly good year for Greek History, and want to lock in their choice early?
This gets back to the conversation we were having earlier about more and more schools bypassing the APA interviews.
Wrong For Candidates, Wrong for the Discipline, and Wrong for America.
Of course, they are Canadian, so why should they care about America? But still!
Re Toronto
Pretty sure this is their usual M.O. A little antisocial perhaps, but definitely more efficient.
I'm not sure how common it is, but I don't think it's unheard of for a department to have what they consider to be a lopsided candidate pool, especially if their search is quite specific. This leads to 3-5 wish-list, uber-candidates from the get-go and all the rest who aren't an ideal fit. After some talks with the dean, they go straight to the campus visits. This happened to me once with a SLAC (though I was the bridesmaid in the end).
Does anybody know (and want to share!) how many candidates Toronto is inviting to campus?
Kids,
There's often a simple reason that a department might skip the APA: money. Budgets are really really tight at many places and sending a committee to the annual meeting and then bringing 3-5 people to campus is a huge investment of capital.
One of the shocking truths you might learn when you are gainfully employed is that, unless you are at an elite university, travel funds can be very limited.
I understand the money constraints (and btw, nice condescending tone! "kids" and "when you are gainfully employed"... !). But the real problem that this practice causes is the timing of offers. Often, those institutions who have early on-campus interviews, or phone interviews, end up presenting offers earlier than those schools who do go to the AHA or APA. The dilemma is then: What do you do if you get an offer and are still waiting to hear from the better school with a dream job for which you interviewed at the AHA/APA? Often times, the school bypassing national meetings won't be ready to wait for you. I say, in my humble opinion, that this practice opens the door for candidates to accept early offers, but then to withdraw at the last minute if a better offer comes along. Tight and competitive market leads to rough practices. But I'd say this is fair game for both sides and not just for future employers. What if you want to be fair and ethical, and you decline the offer, because you're not ready to withdraw from the lesser job once you gave your word? And then you don't get any other offer? Think anybody will feel bad for you? I don't think so. In the end, I believe that schools who get candidates to withdraw look pretty bad. And that's the bet they took right from the start by trying to do it earlier than others. Maybe I'm wrong and most schools who bypass the APA try to coordinate with schools who do? That's not what experience shows, and it would be very naive to think so.
Geriatrics,
If non-tier 1 schools are sending committees to the APA for VAP and Lecturer positions, funding seems to be a minor issue, no? Why not conduct phone interviews or "green" interviews then?
The simple solution would be for the boomers to get a retirement life while there's still some lead left in the pencil. Classics must set the record for retirement age among even the Humanities disciplines. Walk to the light - there's life outside academia!
Oregon said that even though they weren't interviewing at the APA, they were still going to conduct campus interviews within the same time-frame as those schools doing APA interviews so skipping the APA for interviews doesn't mean tying to necessarily circumvent the system and rush someone to accept an early offer. And I, for one, liked the 'green' interview much better than an APA one.
Also, even schools who interview at the APA have different time tables for campus interviews. I've done them as early as late January and as late as March. Depends sometimes on the individual school's bureaucracy.
Adults,
We kids find this a bit hard to believe in the case of a tenure-track hire at the University of Toronto. Given the enormous investment such a hire entails, to skimp on the chance of talking with a dozen or so candidates instead of 3 or 4 doesn't make much business sense.
This is not to say that Toronto doesn't have very good reasons for going straight to the campus interviews. But I doubt it is because of money. I'm not saying that skipping the APA doesn't make sense for a department in many cases, but the example at hand doesn't fit very well.
If you were talking more generally, fair enough. But then why don't departments at least set up some phone or "green" interviews? In any case, the move by departments to bring candidates to campus way ahead of the normal scheduling (i.e. pre-APA), and without going through the APA, is a troubling development, regardless of the many factors behind these decisions. It is much harder on candidates and smacks more of the Old Boys Club.
Addressing the readers here as "Kids" is insulting and absurd. I was tempted to write a MUCH more biting response to this, but held back. Maybe if committees and departments were a wee bit more transparent then you all wouldn't have to deal with rampant speculation, and have to respond to it in such patronizing tones. And we'd all be happier, now, wouldn't we?
Whoa, I guess I wasn't the only one ticked off at Mr. Adult!
I think Oregon's approach is laudable. Save money, time, resources, etc. and yet still work within the system. I think this is the way of the future.
And then maybe the APA conference can be centered on scholarship and professional exchange, instead of a stress fest in need of Temple Grandin, with some talks happening on the side.
Go Ducks!
Why should the SC at Toronto or anywhere else
go through the motions of interviewing ten or twelve candidates at the APA if it has already carefully read all the files, discussed them, and decided that there are only 3 or 4 viable candidates, regardless of how charming some of the others might be in a thirty minute interview?
Why should the SC at Toronto or anywhere else go through the motions of interviewing ten or twelve candidates at the APA if it has already carefully read all the files, discussed them, and decided that there are only 3 or 4 viable candidates, regardless of how charming some of the others might be in a thirty minute interview?
Fair enough. I guess I really do have a hard time believing that the pool of Greek Historians applying to the Toronto job would be so shallow that a committee could settle so quickly on a top 4. But, I'm not reading those dossiers, and if told that this were the case by a Toronto faculty member, would be inclined to believe them.
Moreover, I assume that Toronto isn't flying in the candidates before Christmas, so the timetable will be basically the same, in the end. So complaints of unfair practices don't hold here, if that is in fact the case. If not, well then.
Sheesh. Leave it to the anonymity of the internet to get people to start writing silly things, or being way too forthright. These issues really aren't as big a deal as some of you are making them out to be. Like Toronto, for example: I'm one of those who was not invited to campus, and I'm glad that if I'm not under serious consideration I don't have to go through an interview. Might I have dazzled them and made them rethink things if we had met in person? Sure. But the smart money's on an interview having had no impact, since I know that if a school doesn't want to interview me I'm probably not what they're looking for. And if some departments have different timetables, that's potentially inconvenient for a very small number of people who are affected, but not a major issue to get all worked up about.
Overall, people should just tone down their rhetoric. As I wrote, the anonymity will let people say things they otherwise wouldn't, and that's not always a good thing. (In fact, I'm right now being carried away by an urge to take advantage of this anonymity and admit something that I never would in person: I am a serial killer. My father, let's just call him "Harry," was a cop. He noticed when I was a child that I used to kill small animals, and recognizing that I would grow up to be a killer, he trained me so that I would not get caught, but also instilled in me a code: I only kill murderers. I've killed dozens of people, but they all deserved it. Man, I feel so much better having gotten this off my chest. Now I know what the Greeks meant by "catharsis.")
I agree that pushing the timetable of offers forward by some schools is problematic.
But, and perhaps this is heretical here, what is the real use of the APA interview? Do they actually make a difference? Don't they simply encourage us to think we are getting valuable information, when in fact we are just getting more noise introduced into an already noisy system. Letters of Recommendation being perhaps the noisiest variables in the whole damn package.
I think Toronto's move is both more efficient in terms of finances, but also in terms of evaluation. As long as they don't "trap" their candidate with an early offer (though were that candidate I wouldn't complain!), it seems like a sensible way to handle the search.
I don't know. This is an interesting set of issues, but let's not focus overly much on Toronto. It isn't fair to them as a department, nor to those they've chosen as finalists.
Quit crying, people, and take it like an academic!
All we need now is a string quartet playing a stirring rendition of Nearer My God to Thee and all would be perfect. But by my estimation, there are still several hours before the boat sinks and seats yet empty in the lifeboats...
Re: Toronto
I don't have a lot of experience with Canadian schools, but isn't it a bit more standard for them to skip the APA and go straight to a short list?
I agree with anonymous 5:06 PM that I'd consider it just as well to skip the first stage interview than go through a first-round interview just so that they can say they interviewed ten candidates at the APA and then invite the three or four people who were already at the top of their list anyway. There's no benefit in that for me or them.
Huh. I guess I'll have to let "Anonymous 5:50" live, then.
I thought this deserves a wider audience. I copied it off the Philosophy Job Market Blog, but it seems just as appropriate here.
I was led to this blog by some conversations with my own students. (I've got a fair number on the market this year for whom I am either first or second reader of their dissertations.)
Hope my speaking as an anonymous old fart won't be taken in the wrong way. But here's the thing I tell them all. I know this job search business can be a terribly discouraging at times. It's can be especially discouraging if you are one of the many younger philosophers who probably won't land that killer first job that fully matches your talents and ambitions. Of course, some do land such jobs first time out. And fortunate those who do. But many, many don't.
To that majority, I say try to think of it as a marathon rather than a sprint. And try hard not to let where you are at any given stage of the marathon get to you too much. You have to make up ground little by little sometimes on those who start out faster.
The first job is for most people just that -- the first job. It was for me. I started out at a two year job at good liberal arts college. It was a perfectly fine college, but it was just a two year job. Second year on the market, while I was still there, I got no interviews. Third year, after my two year job ended, I got exactly one, but fortunately I did get that job. It was a tenure track job at an equally good liberal arts college.
Eventually, hungering to teach graduate students -- since my work was then kinda technical and not necessarily accessible to even good undergraduates -- I went from there to a massive but underfunded state university with a mediocre graduate program. Hated it-- well I hated the university, but I did adore a few of my colleagues -- and was determined to get out of there. Eventually I did. It was at times very stressful, being at places I didn't really want to be. I tried hard to not let the demands of my job on me define my professional aspirations.
Through a combination of something -- hard work, good fortune, stupid blind thrashing about -- things eventually worked out -- after about 11 or so years in the profession. I finally landed a great job that I absolutely loved.
My old fart point. There are many, many paths to a good academic career. The race doesn't always go to the swift. The path is sometimes brutal. [ I remember crying in the shower my first year on the market about how my advisors were so ineffectual and uncaring. ] But it can work out. It doesn't always. But it can.
I hope you all take a little heart in that. I know it's not much. I'm not at all trying to sound like a pure pollyanna. I know how stressful and debilitating this can be for you all. I've watched generations of my own students go through it and I want through it myself many times.
It's hard to remind yourself, in the midst of it all, when you're watching your dream interview go to somebody else, that it's really a marathon for most of us rather than a sprint.
All the best to you all in these stressful times.
Let's try and keep the snark and fangs at bay here. Overall, we have a great thing going in this profession. Making mountains out of molehills is getting us nowhere, fast.
We need to give our interlocutors, present or not, the benefit of the doubt, and assume good intentions all around, until proven otherwise.
A quick question from a novice in job searches and its lingo: what exactly is a "green" interview?
Thanks in advance!
Wow, it looks like the "adult" got the smackdown, and some.
Anonymous 5:06,
Good to see a fellow "Dexter" viewer. I hope no one has reported you to Doakes.
I think all of us know about searches that aren't really open. The UCLA searches are.
What I was responding to was the problem that this job was listed on the wiki incorrectly as Hellenist, and repeated incorrectly as Hellenist here.
And thank you, UCLA faculty member, for the clarification. I had also been wondering why it was listed as "Hellenist" on the wiki and had asked for clarification, wondering whether the people invited for interviews (at least those on this list) had all in fact been Hellenists. The idea that there might be very reasonable coordination with the senior search also makes perfect sense.
"As I wrote, the anonymity will let people say things they otherwise wouldn't, and that's not always a good thing."
In this case, I think it's a good thing as I've learned more about the market this year than four previous years put together.
So, when I was on the market mumblemumble years ago, I thought that it was pretty dang diddley stressful.
I couldn't imagine a way to make it more stressful, save if the application letters should have to be written in the style of the Hellenistic epigrammatists, replete with hidden acrostics (H-I-R-E-x-M-E). Or maybe Martial-style distichs. Or maybe a Periclean funeral oration (the hard one). Or perhaps something simple, like a fragmentary chorus of Aiskhylos.
Or perhaps interviews should be conducted in swimming pools. Or maybe all the interviewers should be dressed as Beelzebub. Maybe the candidate should be asked to explain her diss via interpretive dance. In two minutes, or less. This might at least make it easier when someone asks you to "tell us about your dissertation" and then you can't remember what Chapter Two was about or whether, God forbid, perhaps you forgot Chapter Two altogether and went straight to Chapter Three. Darnit. So that's how I ended up with seventeen chapters... I skipped the even ones.
It's stressful! It's horrible! It's *supposed to be*. It's important. It's your job, but it's also your life.
But mainly, it's your job. Remember this.
Anyway, I thought it couldn't be more stressful than it was those mumblemumble years back.
And then I found this place.
Dammit. You guys went and found a way to make one of the least enjoyable aspects of an altogether enjoyable profession (and I say this to encourage you: I have a job, and a t-t one, and I am happier than a pig in the proverbial) just *that much worse*.
Let me tell you what I know.
I have been through two job searches on the ugly end of the stick. I was once an inside candidate. I got the job. And it was a real bloody search. No nudges, no winks, no "say no more, say no more"s. 14 or so other interviewees, and 3 other campus visitors. Nothing was assured, nothing promised, nothing hinted at. I was astounded and humbled by my colleague's ethics and utter professionalism. I wanted the nudges. I wanted the winks. What I got was another terrifying, white-knuckled, and totally professional search. Interview at the APA. Dinner as a "visitor" back home. Talk in the department. Totally, excruciatingly, above the board.
And I want to say honestly that I think this is the norm rather than the exception.
Now, I am in a department that has done searches.
Whether or not we are doing one this year is beside the point. I am not on a SC this year. But I've read these posts, many of which very unfairly (and—and I know this—inaccurately) impugn some very fine departments, and scholars, and professionals, and people. I don't know who has applied where, but I take it that at least some of you are talking some serious trash about departments you'd hope to join. If you really think we are so despicably unethical, why would you want to work with us?
Stop it. Please. It does not become you. Those of us with permanent positions don't have it in for you. We remember, and quake. We think of that sweaty hotel suite, and smell sulfer. We agonize. We argue. We read files a thousand times over and fill notebooks with notes the likes of which we have not seen since orals days. We want you all to find the right jobs, stable jobs, and jobs that make you happy and let you use profitably the skills you've worked so freaking hard to acquire.
We freaking remember. Ok?
We are doing our best. The process isn't a perfect one. It's what we have. The ftf interviews are helpful because (1) it is really useful to see how a person actually reacts to living people—you aren't hiring a barrista: this person may be the person you'll grow old with. And—and listen up—(2) a lot of very good candidates shoot themselves square in the foot in a ftf interview. Bam. Bam bam bam. Some use a .45; others prefer the shotgun effect.
How to have a good interview? (oh, look, I'm giving away trade secrets)
Find the room early, but please don't knock until about 30 seconds after your time. If a hotel has two towers, make sure you know the right one.
Pee first. Don't be hungover, and don't notice it if we are.
Don't dress too funkily, but be yourself. We aren't hiring a Microsoft exec. We want a colleague, and only a few of us wear ties daily, so don't overdo it. Then again, this is not the time to advertise your fetishes. Look clean and ready to talk. Be excited about your work.
Have a short answer for your diss (or present project); it should take about two minutes. Then have a longer one; it should take five minutes. Give this only if asked to expand (you probably will be). You have only maybe 40 to 45 minutes, tops. We've read your file; we want to hear you talk about your work. If someone asks you a specific question, do your best. It's ok to take a second or two to clear your thoughts.
When you are done, stop talking. We are unlikely to stop you, unless you ramble.
Don't cover your mouth when you speak. Don't wring your hands. Don't start giving the "devil hand" and involuntarily head-banging every time someone says something interesting. If you have these ticks, work on them now.
Be prepared to talk about your next projects, but don't list six, because we won't believe you. List two or maybe three. Be specific. If you can only be specific about one, then only discuss one—but have one.
If you've claimed you can teach X, Y, or Zed, then know what bloody texts you will use. Don't say you want to teach intermediate Greek with a text that has no commentary. Know what the dept uses to teach intro courses (have notes, review them right before you go in): if you'd use something else or have only taught from something else, be up front about it, but don't go all hog diggley about criticizing a dept's choices. Chances are we are using what works for us. We are probably open to change, but we aren't looking for a revolutionary. We are looking for a compatriot.
Have a class—if it's a dept with a grad program, a seminar—you'd like to teach that IS NOT on the topic of your diss. We want to see what you have in mind to do NEXT. "Of course I'd love to teach a seminar on [the topic of my diss], but I am really looking forward to one on [another topic], which feeds into one of my next projects..."
Don't sell "Ancient Gay Sex Rawks!" to a conservative school, and don't sell "Augustus: Like Bush, but Better!" to a liberal one. But do have one or two focused "in translation" classes you might offer to undergrads. It's fine for you to shift these classes according to the school. We know you do. We want flexibility.
At some point, we will likely ask you if you have any questions. This is not the time to say "which Dakota is this, anyway?" or "how much do I get paid?" or "are your students smart?" or "is your library any good?" (No: it sucks, which is why none of us publish anyway: we hate books) It's fine to say "I don't think so—your departmental website is exceedingly informative, and I've done a lot of research into the area as a whole. You have a fantastic department, and I am very excited about this position." In short, don't ask questions that are not your business, or that you could have answered online.
Even if they don't have a fantastic dept, and even if you aren't very excited, you say this. You don't know how things will play out. As another poster said, it's a marathon.
It is also ok to say "hmmmm. I don't know. I'm still working on that aspect... thank you" if asked about something about your research you'd not considered. It's not going to sink you.
Trust me. I was full metal stupid at times in the interview that got me my job. Don't worry about that. Don't worry about one bad answer.
Relax. Do your homework. Don't freak yourself out. And please please please stop thinking that SCs are behaving unethically just because of the famae that uolent. I'm not saying it doesn't happen: only that it doesn't happen as much as people want to think it does. And that does no credit to the field we all (I hope) love.
And finally. I hope you all get interviews. Lots of them. But you only need one job. You can only take one job. At times, even that one job is going to seem like three or four.
And even then, guys, it's just a job. It's just a way of paying the bills. It's not you. It's a job, and you'll get one.
I fear this has come off wrong. If so, apologies up front. I really wish you all the best. I really do remember. And I'm only telling you what I tell all of my PhD students. And almost all of them have jobs, and most are t-t.
In boca al' lupo, Quirites! (oooh, how's that for a bastardization?)
Crepi!
Anonymous 1:45 AM:
Thanks very much for your posting. I admit to contributing to some of the complaining and grumbling on this blog; mostly, honestly, it's just letting off steam. I've seen some things in my three years of job searching that have really pissed me off, and I've also been involved in some really classy searches for jobs that, alas, I didn't get.
I don't think all search committees members are mean-spirited or clueless or whatever else might be implied on this blog, but I don't think that they all look on struggling job candidates as kindly as you do either. Then again, the less than kind ones probably haven't forgotten the experience; it's just that they are the sort of people who were less than kind from the start.
Thanks again for taking the time to write so much for us job candidates; I for one really appreciate it.
Well, many apologies to the person who wrote the extraordinarily informative post about restaurants in Chicago. You used to be my favorite contributor. But no more. Sorry.
Now my fave is the anonymous faculty member who stays up much too late for his own good reading and responding to blogs. This was a great and helpful post. Thanks for taking the time to compose it. I do hope he puts his post in his tenure file as "service to the profession".
But, unlike him, I am glad that I have found this place. The job search is such an isolating experience, that it is nice to be able let off a little steam, and to be understood. Everybody doesn't know my name, but at least they know what the real situation is. Unlike most of my friends, and all of my family!
My stress level hasn't dropped since I found the wiki and famae, but I've learned much more here than in all the other years I spent on the market combined, and that has made me much more confident.
Coach, Woody, Sam? Beer, please.
I just saw on the Wiki that Dartmouth sent APA interview notices. The deadline for the TT-Latinist was November 1st, so it makes sense. But isn't the deadline for Dartmouth's 2 year- VAP December 15th?
I wouldn't be surprised if Dartmouth didn't realize the deadline hadn't passed. I applied for the two-year position (not a Latinist or an archaeologist) and even though I stated at the top of my letter "Application for Two-Year visiting Assistant Professor," someone still contacted me to ask me which job I was applying for. I wrote them off at that point because I figured my application would end up lost somewhere.
I just noticed that there are updates to the old wiki for Dartmouth and University of the South, but not on the new one (with the password)..... Which one are we using now??
Re: Toronto
(Full disclosure -- I didn't apply for that job, but I know the department well)
Very few Canadian universities interview at the APA. One reason is that the term starts much earlier in January, so the APA often falls during the first week of term, making it very difficult for *any* faculty members to attend, much less enough for a SC. But Toronto, at least, is very aware of the usual timetable, and isn't trying to trap candidates; in several recent searches they've waited quite a long time for their preferred candidate to hear back from other schools, and at least once the search has actually failed because of it (the preferred candidate took another job, and by then the other acceptable candidate had also done so). So whatever the larger truths about the process are, I don't think you need to be specifically suspicious of Toronto.
Regarding Toronto
Perfect. This makes sense. I had no idea about the timing of the start of terms, and this is a good piece of information to know, in general.
Thanks!
To Anonymous 8:45 AM:
Alas, I have been dethroned! But seriously, you're right, the faculty member's post was very reassuring.
Perhaps I can regain my status with some much-needed humor:
http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=944
Please, anyone, what is a "green" interview?
Green interview = environmentally sound. Not using unnecessary fuel to fly search committees to the conference, etc.
"I was once an inside candidate."
At least he admits he was once an inside candidate. And I would concur that not all SC members are as menschy as this gentleman/lady. I've been on more than a few interviews where you can tell that at least one member is reveling in the turning of tables with zero empathy. Perhaps it's payback for their experience?
You'll usually have one or two outlyers in a SC. Besides those who are inebriated, the ones to watch out for are the newly-minted assistant profs who are reveling in climbing out of the pit after their own arduous process, as you've suggested, and the ones so old that they've forgotten that their dear old advisor called his Princeton chum 50 years ago to get him, yes him, that job. My 2¢ from experience.
Fordham University (T-T Latinist)
APA notification (ph) 12/13/07
University of Dayton(t-t Ancient History)
AHA Interview request 12/13/2007 (phone).
Vanderbilt (Senior Hellenist)
APA interview 12.13.07, via email
Penn State (Hellenist)
Notification: No APA interview, but candidacy still active just in case...
re: Bridesmaid
Same email for me about the Hellenist position.
"Just in case" what? People don't come to their interviews? A plane crash? C'mon, get real, they have a list and that's it. (And we're not on it.)
I hate these kind of rejections. A firm "No thanks" is so much better.
I think its "just in case some of the people we interview suck."
I applied to Penn State, but I didn't get that email. So I'd take it as a complement.
Notre Dame( TT- Late Antiquity/Medieval)
APA intreview notification 12/14/07
smail mail
"I applied to Penn State, but I didn't get that email. So I'd take it as a complement."
Ditto
Just curious -- has anybody heard from Toronto about the open rank Gk art position? The post on the wiki said the SC claimed it would meet "in a few days," and that was more than 3 weeks ago. Thanks.
Re: Penn State hellenist
It sounds like the SC got down to 20-30 applicants and threw darts from there, resulting in a waiting list.
Sigh, the image of dart-throwing is pretty depressing. I feel like a teeny-bopper frantically fighting the crowd trying to get an autograph from Justin Timberlake.
I think it is less like dart throwing and more like bobbing for apples.
Of course, I don't know who is doing the bobbing, we applicants or the search committees!
I think the image of dart-throwing is depressing because it shows the kind of slanders people throw around just because they didn't get an interview, and which are become increasingly characteristic of this "blog." What evidence is there that the search was not conducted properly?
Bobbing for apples?! Damn, I've been playing the wrong game. If the SC are the ones bobbing, why o why did I let my pulp get so big!
Yikes, another accusatory/defensive/overly-sensitive SC member in our midst. Turning the tables, where do you see any accusations of impropriety?
What evidence is there that the search was not conducted properly?
I don't think anyone is suggesting anything like that. It's more like, once you widdle the candidates down to a certain number, at that point it sometimes really is luck of the draw if you get interviewed since the candidates on the larger list are likely pretty comparable and the determining factor can be something that might be considered minor. A former professor once told me after sitting on a hiring committee himself that he had no idea how he ever got a job since sometimes the process is so complicated. He said he felt more than ever that he just got lucky.*
*This is purely anecdotal and in no way to be taken as a general statement of fact supported by anything other than hearsay.
No, I am not an "SC member."
"Turning the tables, where do you see any accusations of impropriety?"
When Anonymous 12:17 said:
"It sounds like the SC got down to 20-30 applicants and threw darts from there, resulting in a waiting list."
Sounds like an accusation that the search was not conducted properly, and quite a conclusion to draw from the fact that viable candidates were told their file would remain open (standard procedure in any search until a hire has been made).
And on a different note, I think it's worth repeating the general question (raised about Toronto by joey joe--oh you must be kidding with that moniker): what is the deal with the MC jobs? I am going to hit some kind of sad email- and wiki-checking record trying to find out my status. Even rejection would be welcome at this stage (almost). Well, that's just an expression of frustration, since there's clearly nothing we can do about it. I remember some of the interview requests were really late last year . . .
The throwing-darts comment could have been construed as mean-spirited, thought I happened to think it wasn't at the time, nor do I now. I think the bobbing-for-apples comment was downright funny, especially now that I am, as we speak, reading files from so many incredible applicants.
This job is so hard. Every apple looks great, but even I, who am supposedly in charge of getting them out of the barrel, can't predict what will happen in the end.
We do recognize that the process appears random. But we all remember what it was like on the other side. We try our best to be clear, though sometimes our hands our tied behind our backs by the administration, and by labor laws. Much like bobbing for apples. So be patient.
Sorry if that sounded defensive, because it wasn't meant to be! Best of luck to all of you!
I'm not an archaeologist, but other than Toronto, what other jobs are there to wait for? Aren't the pickings usually slim for material culture?
Ditto what SC member said. Now if the poster implied that all the numbers on the dartboard said "1" I would be putting up my dukes.
Oooh ooooh ooooh! Pick me! I'm right here! Up against the side of the bucket! No, not that side, the left side. Your other left!! C'mon, bare those front teeth! Thataway! Go, go, go, SC Member!!
Yeayyyy!
Keyser Söze said...
I'm not an archaeologist, but other than Toronto, what other jobs are there to wait for? Aren't the pickings usually slim for material culture?
Now that's a good name. Yes, the pickings are slim. Here's what I think many of us are waiting for. News from:
Toronto
Bryn Mawr
Brown
Arizona
Wellesley
Did I leave one/some off?
Do you need the staff of Ra to find where these material culture jobs are posted? I found the Wellesley and Bryn Mawr announcements, but that's it.
"Widdle"? (giggle)
There's also Fordham, Queens College, William and Mary, Rochester, and Vanderbilt that haven't notified, but I wasn't going to apply to those, so they may be CAA jobs. I'd also, out of curiosity, like to know what's happened with the Princeton search that started in, like, June.
Why does everybody keep criticizing my name?
How do the APA interviews work for MC applicants. As a class of '07Hellenist, I can't help but feel that it's feast or famine. For whatever reason, there are those who get 10+ interviews, and those (like me I admit) who get a trickle. I hear you need 7 interviews minimum to have any shot at a campus invite, so I guess it's better luck next year for me!
I hear you need 7 interviews minimum to have any shot at a campus invite
If that were true, I know about 2 dozen people who would be unemployed right now including myself. I've had 3 interviews with 2 fly backs and an offer. I had a friend get one interview, get the fly back and get the job.
If only takes one interview. Seven just improves the odds.
Fordham is for a Latinist, Queen's is for Greek History, and Vanderbilt is for a senior generalist. Am I missing something here? And what's CAA?
Fordham and Queens have advertised through the College Art Association, as have a few others. Some institutions advertise through both APA and CAA, others use only one service. You have to rely on both to find all the MC positions.
Fordham and Queens have advertised through the College Art Association, as have a few others. Some institutions advertise through both APA and CAA, others use only one service. You have to rely on both to find all the MC positions.
Apologies for the double post--I'm a rookie. What I should have added is that the Fordham and Queens jobs advertised through CAA are different from the ones posted on APA.
Anon 2:08 said:
"I hear you need 7 interviews minimum to have any shot at a campus invite, so I guess it's better luck next year for me!"
Don't be so hard on yourself Anon 2:08. I'm not sure there were even seven jobs for Hellenist mc people this year (but I might have to procure the staff of Ra to verify that). I know of people who have had one interview, one campus visit and one job--it happens. It goes back, I think, to the bobbing for apples thread. Some folks call it "fit," and I believe "fit" is a real consideration in many departments. This could be your year! (And, yes, part of this cheerleading comes from trying to convice myself, too.)
In two years on the market, I had a total of 5 interviews and 2 campus visits. I had one AIA interview the first year, the year I finished my PhD, for a one-year position, which (luckily) I got. The next year, I got one AIA interview and two at CAA, plus a phone interview for a VAP. One of the CAA interviews turned into a campus visit and an offer for a T-T position; I was supposed to go to the place with the phone interview but declined that once I got the job offer. Slim pickings, and boy, do I feel lucky.
Don't forget, there ARE those fast out of the gates with a H-bomb degree or whatnot. They get propped up for whatever reason with great recs and get 20 interviews, but have all the charisma of a doorknob when you interview them.
So it sounds like the ratio of APA interviews to flybacks is much better for MC applicants than it is for philologists. Do philology searches just interview much more people? How do historians fit into this paradigm?
So it sounds like the ratio of APA interviews to flybacks is much better for MC applicants than it is for philologists.
Is that true? Why would that be true? I hope that's true.
Well, I can tell you as someone with 8 interviews last year and zero flybacks that the number doesn't guarantee anything. 5 interviews to 2 flybacks does sound like a high ratio to me, but perhaps I'm just one of those "doorknobs."
Whoever said that it takes seven interviews to get one on-campus interview doesn't understand math. Perhaps those numbers come from some APA tabulation, but just because there were seven APA interviews for every campus interview doesn't mean that the number has any predictive value. That's not how it works. (Heck, a team of math PhD's would be unable to find a meaningful formula to predict the odds of getting an on-campus interview based on the number of interviews one has next month.)
Some additional points, since I've been through this before:
Every year, there will be a small number of "stars" right out of grad school who somehow get 10+ interviews, while other equally good candidates will get half that, or less. (And I'm not referring to people who apply to 60 jobs and therefore get a lot of interviews.) This is at least partly attributable to the laws of randomness, so don't get discouraged if you're very good and from a very good program, but don't have many interviews. It's not a reflection on you or your employability. It's just that some people got a few more dice rolls landing their way than you did.
If this is your first time on the market, don't focus only on the APA. There will be a lot of jobs, some of them excellent jobs, after the meeting is over. Sure, few of those (if any) will be tenure-track, but some of them will be much better than many of the current one-year jobs out there right now.
U-Rochester (T-T Classical Archaeology)
AIA Interview Notification 12.14.07 (em)
"Slim pickings, and boy, do I feel lucky."
And you're jumping for the Toronto job! Make some room in the apple barrel for us, Joey!
I'll hastily add that my first sentence about someone not knowing math applies to whoever told this to the poster up above, not to the poster himself/herself.
Sorry, Johnny, I feel lucky for my job, not where I live. Toronto it ain't.
Agreed, it's similar to the gambler's fallacy that if you roll a die six times you will hit your number at least once. This is false as your chances "resets" itself to 1/6 before each roll.
The Numbers
I think a place where people could voluntarily leave statistics like this would be useful. It might depressing for some of us (myself included), but it would be nice to have as much data as possible.
I would like to see whether someone is a philologist (or even Latinist or Hellenist), historian, or archaeologist. How many jobs they applied for, how many APAs/AIAs/CAAs they had, how many campus interviews, and how many offers.
I'm sure this is a pipe dream, but it would be a nice set of data to run regressions on, all sorts of cool stuff! My inner economist is coming out.
Sorry, geekiness quotient very high!
Did I leave one/some off?
Aren't there positions at NYU we still haven't heard about?
"Toronto it ain't."
Get your mufflers and engine block heaters out though...
Nigel,
That would still be meaningless. After all, there are different types of Latinists, hellenists, etc. What if someone's a Vergil person and goes on the market, but most of the jobs for Latinists are from departments that already have a Vergil person? What if someone's dissertation was a commentary on Pliny the Elder's section on painters -- would that person be a true Latinist, or an art historian, or a material culture person, etc.? No breakdown is going to have much meaning as it applies to any one of us.
In general, I'd say that there's way too much obsessing going on here, some of it under the guise of wishing to understand more about the process. This is understandable, especially for first-timers. But the truth is, if you've already turned in your applications you've done all you can until your interviews, and if you don't get a job from those interviews you'll have plenty of other opportunities from January to June.
All things considered, I don't think there's that much obsessing going on. Yeah, perhaps compared to an average day in the year, but I think we can all agree that there's nothing average about this time of year.
Mr. Grumpy said:
"Nigel,
That would still be meaningless. After all, there are different types of Latinists, hellenists, etc. What if someone's a Vergil person and goes on the market, but most of the jobs for Latinists are from departments that already have a Vergil person? What if someone's dissertation was a commentary on Pliny the Elder's section on painters -- would that person be a true Latinist, or an art historian, or a material culture person, etc.? No breakdown is going to have much meaning as it applies to any one of us."
Yeah. Well.
These to to eleven.
Tulane (TT Greek History)
APA interview notice 12/14/07 (email)
Don't sell "Ancient Gay Sex Rawks!"
Oh no, what if this was your diss topic?
How did you know my diss topic?
Another week come and gone - does this mean that most SCs henceforth will meet after the conclusion of the semester? I for one look forward to getting interveiw invites handed to me in Chicago on post-it notes.
"Another week come and gone - does this mean that most SCs henceforth will meet after the conclusion of the semester? I for one look forward to getting interveiw invites handed to me in Chicago on post-it notes."
Maybe. Last year I received an interview notice from Bowdoin College on December 26. What's up with that?
No, those scraps of paper handed to you at the APA are party invitations, not interview notifications. Don't mix them up!
"Another week come and gone - does this mean that most SCs henceforth will meet after the conclusion of the semester?"
I'm not sure it really means anything. I have (more than once) received interview requests all the way up to the night before the conference.
No, those scraps of paper handed to you at the APA are party invitations, not interview notifications. Don't mix them up!
No, no, they are invitations to ancient gay sex. Make sure you acecept as it can land you a job. It's what your advisors always wanted to tell you but couldn't bring themeselves to.
"Last year I received an interview notice from Bowdoin College on December 26. What's up with that?"
It means that Ebenezer Scrooge was the chair of your SC.
"Last year I received an interview notice from Bowdoin College on December 26. What's up with that?"
It means you got an APA interview with Bowdoin College! Dude(tte), complaining about that is like complaining that Santa brought you the wrong frickin' color BMW. Have some more cheese with your whine. :-)
If anybody gets any late interviews that they are unhappy with, put them back in their wrapping paper and send them to me:
Not quite Dr. Who
Department of Two Dead Languages
Big-Ass State University
Sprawlstown, Red State
43210-1319
Has anybody else noticed that the entire Wiki site is now gone? Every discipline has been deleted. I guess some, like ours, are still clinging on, but the rest are gone. Moved elsewhere. It is like some weird post-nuclear holocaust movie where pockets of normality occur in the midst of devastation. And the FBI is involved now, trying to find the wiki vandal.
"If anybody gets any late interviews that they are unhappy with, put them back in their wrapping paper and send them to me"
Okay, I just sent you one from Dr. Beverley Leslie. He wants you to meet him at the Villa Toscana during the APA - more private, you know. Make sure you are prepared to answer a question on how you would teach a seminar on the pederastic tradition.
So now, according to the wiki, Bryn Mawr has notified by e-mail...
Joey, for having a TT job, you sure are riding this wiki hard.
Does anyone know if the Wellesley job is the same one that failed last year? If so, why did it fail?
"Last year I received an interview notice from Bowdoin College on December 26. What's up with that?"
"It means you got an APA interview with Bowdoin College! Dude(tte), complaining about that is like complaining that Santa brought you the wrong frickin' color BMW. Have some more cheese with your whine. :-)"
My comment was meant to be light-hearted and in a joking spirit - of course I was thriilled to interview with Bowdoin. I just thought it was funny that it came the day after Christmas. Naturally, I would be happy to receive an interview request with a top liberal arts college anytime.
Re: Wellesley
It is is the same search. What I heard (and I do not speak with authority, so please take this with a grain of salt) is that someone with significant influence wanted the department to hire someone who was a marine archaeologist. They didn't find a suitable candidate, so the search failed. This year, they've been able to adjust the parameters of the search. But again, this is all hearsay, and I defer to someone who knows better.
You're right, I'm hitting "refresh" as much as anybody. I'll tell you why: I'm grading papers. And I've discovered 3 plagiarized ones in the last 36 hours. I need *something* to distract me. Finally, as I said, I would like very much to get out of Dodge.
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