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Servio (Serviis?) multas gratias ago! I'll inaugurate this new thread by saying I found the numbers MIT posted very interesting. So they received 218 applications but Providence College attracted 125? That's a huge discrepancy for two jobs that seem largely similar: generalist positions in non-Classics departments with a substantial general ed/service course component. Not to mention the schools are only like an hour apart. Is it the prestige of MIT (even for a literature position)? Did the religious orientation of PC turn that many people off? Or were the MIT numbers inflated by barbarians from Comp Lit and English vel sim.? Would love to know or hear your uninformed speculation.
To anon 9:03: MIT SC person here, and I agree that the discrepancy between our applicant pool and PC's is surprisingly large. MIT's numbers were only very slightly padded by "I'm actually a Victorianist but I once took some Latin and I'm already applying to all the Victorian jobs so why the hell not"-type candidates ... probably only 15-20 of those. If I had to guess, I'd say the difference probably stems from a combination of the other factors that you cite, 9:03, and maybe a couple others (Boston's a bigger city, more attractive to classicists b/c of neighboring schools, etc.). That's strictly a guess, though.
So how do we explain the fact that Oberlin received 500 applications for a Latinist position in the non-metropolitan area that is kinda sorta close to Cleveland?
500 is so many more than the next largest number reported -- and for a Latinist as opposed to open-field at that -- that I reread the "is said to" part of the wiki and take with a big ole salt mine....
Also: PC's was a history position while MIT's was a literature one. Maybe just more lit than hist classicists out there?
Yeah, I call bull**it on that Oberlin number. That just doesn't make any sense. I'd need to see some evidence for that one.
Maybe PC didn't make this clear in their ad, but they were searching for a generalist/philologist, not an ancient historian. They told me that directly. Of course, they need someone to teach in their Western Civ sequence, but those are text-based courses, which a "literature" person can teach as competently as a historian. I just don't think there's actually that much difference in what the two jobs entail (on the teaching side, anyway).
Either there were ca. 80 candidates who misread the PC ad, or there are that many -- a good third of the total pool, I'd say -- who only apply to choicest jobs at the very best schools in the most cosmopolitan cities. I knew that cohort was out there; I just thought, in this day and age, it would be smaller.
PC's figure of 125 seems very low; it's slightly lower than the number of apps for the 1 year VAP at Hamilton (130). Weird.
Speaking of Hamilton, anyone heard anything? Has anyone been contacted for flyouts? If so, I guess that means I'm in limbo (of the "you aren't in our top three but we won't cut you off just yet" variety). If not, it means I still have a chance!
I'm not so surprised by the difference between the MIT and PC numbers--I think a lot of people who already have jobs are looking to move up to a bigger program. There were a good number of big programs searching this year, and I think a lot of people are looking to move to an R1 school.
I don't know if the PC numbers are accurate or not, but I hear from a friend that they only count completed applications, and that they had a lot of incomplete applications (missing letters, transcripts, etc.).
Dear Search Committees,
I will sell you my soul and a set of fine linens for nine months of employment.
Sincerely,
Applicant
Hello, from a first time poster, some-time reader, hoping I'm not treading where I shouldn't with the following question:
Does anyone have any information about what is going on with the R. History search at Western Kentucky University? Last month it was reported on the wiki that campus interviews had been scheduled; in the last couple of days it seems they are doing further Skype and phone interviews. Is it possible that the campus interview candidates did not work out?
My spouse has just been offered a campus interview at WKU in another department. I am disappointed not to have also made the shortlist over in History, but still morbidly curious about where their search is at.
Why did someone delete the Balliol job, and why did someone (the same someone?) delete the complaints against the Joukowsky people? I'm not applying to Balliol, and I'm not an archaeologist, so I don't really care, it just seems odd.
Someone deleted the Montreal job a long time ago, too. I think the answer is the obvious one: they want fewer competitors.
I could be wrong here (I was once, about something else), but isn't there still a Balliol job on the page, and wasn't the one deleted actually a duplicate listing? I'm as big a fan of conspiracy theories as anyone could wish, but in this case I haven't seen enough evidence to induce paranoia. Please do share whatever evidence you may have, though.
I listed the Balliol job then removed my listing because I saw I'd duplicated someone else's entry. No conspiracy here, folks.
"No conspiracy here, folks."
But that's what someone involved in a conspiracy would say.
Dun dun DUNNNNNNNN!
Don't mess with the Chalcock!
Okay, I'll bite. What the hell is a chalcock?
is the MacMaster job a joke? or is it for real? also, anybody knows who got the UBC job?
is the MacMaster job a joke? or is it for real? also, anybody knows who got the UBC job?
There are two McMaster jobs, if I read correctly. One is for an Archaeologist who teaches Greek and Latin language and Roman Art and Archaeology, and the other is for a(n) Historian who teaches Latin language, Greek and Roman History, and Myth. There's nothing very funny about that, but I'm sure they're both great jobs, for the right person. They certainly pay enough, which is nice.
UBC job went to the in-house candidate.
How could anyone suggest a job at McMaster might be a joke?
Why are there so few names of hired candidates posted to the wiki? These things will come out eventually, won't they?
@9:05. Yes, that's more or less right. Two positions; both real. One position is (roughly) half archaeology and language; one position is (again roughly) half ancient history and language (and myth). C. Eilers (Chair)
Thank you, Prof. Eilers.
To those editing the wiki, please don't turn a position to red until the job has been accepted. It should remain orange until there is absolutely no hope. You are giving some of us heart-attacks.
If the McMaster positions are not a joke, then why are they not listed on the Wiki, or on the Canadian Classical Bulletin, or on the Departmental website?
Yes, I must admit that I too am a bit wary of positions that are advertised *only* through FV. No offense to Prof. Eilers, if it is you, but we've had problems with impersonation here before.
I always encourage anyone with any doubts to apply only to those positions listed in official publications, and preferably only in hard-copy versions of those publications. Why waste your time with institutions that seem to have embraced this new-fangled web technology and are, apparently, committed to making things slightly easier for potential applicants by sharing information in a timely manner?
@2:19. No problem. You've given me a great idea for a prank I can pull on the other chairs: crush them in an avalanche of applications. (Muahaha!) As for the CCB (etc.), these will be coming shortly. We only got permission to advertise the day before yesterday! As an earnest for the skeptical I can point out that at least one is now on the provost's page: http://bit.ly/xTcsZN. Claude.
C. Eilers: "You've given me a great idea for a prank I can pull on the other chairs: crush them in an avalanche of applications. (Muahaha!)."
That's so evil. I love it. Definitely applying to McMaster now.
Definitely applying to McMaster now.
Excellent!
Does anyone know what the deal is with the Winnipeg job? Only two candidates are being interviewed?
The Michigan enthusiast would love to know who got that job!
If you think that MacMaster is paying good money, you are not familiar with the Canadian tax-system. You will get peanuts after taxes. You will also be happy to be teaching your butt off (though there is a discount on the summer load. thanks!) You would not know what to do with your spare time in Hamilton!
5:07 I expect you are trying to crush the competition but this is kind of a silly way to go about it ... or maybe you just have never lived in Canada? Canadian taxes are not that high relative to American ones and if you factor in the extra costs for health care (and many other things -- hopeless public transportation in many US places, incredibly high tuition for college, etc.) in the US, you keep more money in Canada.
If you are daunted by small town living you can hop the train to Toronto from Hamilton -- an easy day trip there and back. Or, if you are wary of trains, of course, you could pile into your super-sized SUV and explore the suburbs of Toronto.
p.s. 5:07 re: taxes, I should have qualified my statement. Millionaires and billionaires are taxed more than middle-income earners in Canada, so if you inherited billions and think you have the moral right to keep them all and pay a minute tax, you might not want to apply to McMaster and put your billions in a Canadian bank. If you are like most of us, however, you'll find middle-incomes are not taxed much more in Canada than in the US. If there is a bit extra, and it isn't much, it's so worth it to know that everyone you meet has access to healthcare.
Canadian taxes are pretty easy to figure out. You will pay 15% federal and 5% provincial on the first $40k of taxable income. 22% federal and 9% provincial on the rest. There is a $10k personal deduction, so your total income tax will be no more than $13k on a $66k income. Eyeballing it, that means a paycheck of roughly $4k per month. Then there is a sales tax of 13% on most goods and services (but not rent or food); gasoline taxes are relatively high.
Canadian taxes on Saturday morning?
Doesn't the IRS have some rule about income US citizens earn abroad?
@7:33 am. My understanding is that, yes, US citizens owe taxes on income from outside the country. But any tax paid in a country with a tax treaty (such as Canada) will be credited against the US tax owed. Since the taxes in Canada tend to be slightly higher, the effect is that nothing will be owed to the IRS.
I did not mean to crush the competition for MacMaster job. I simply vented here my feelings: the teaching load is ferocious and it angers me that institutions can capitalize on our desperation like this (esp. over here, the realm of desperation). To that, I say NO. PS: I am more familiar with Canada and its institutions than you may think.
Isn't income earned outside the US and falling under a certain threshold actually exempt from US federal taxation? Not feeling interested enough to invest any energy in finding the exact details for this, but maybe a place like Canada will still demand its share of your money due to these "treaties" between them and the US. Maybe Canada isn't sufficiently "outside" the US to give you this tax exempt status...
When did a 3-3-2 teaching load become "ferocious"? I know plenty of people who are teaching more involved courses than the ones listed in the ad at a 4-4 load, which is actually quite common in a liberal arts setting. And I've also seen plenty of jobs this season advertising similar loads. What is a "proper" course load, if 3 per term is ridiculous? Is there some aspect of Canadian courses that we non-insiders should know about?
Meanwhile, at McMaster…
A 3-2 teaching load is actually well within a normal range, and has been for many years, through good times and bad, for t-t and other positions, junior and senior, both sides of the border. How does this amount to the exploitation of desperation?
It isn't a 3-2, but a 3-3-2, so more like a 4-4. But, it is still not exploitation. A full-time VAP with a generous salary is to be celebrated, not mocked. Try adjuncting at 3 different schools, getting paid $2500/course, then you'll know exploitation. Idiot.
McMaster ought to be praised not berated. It looks to me like they have convinced their Dean to approve a VAP position, at a pay rate well above what they would pay a sessional on a per course basis, on top of which are benefits, which at a Canadian university will not be insubstantial. Because they are not farming out this work piecemeal at the cheapest possible rate, someone will have twelve months guaranteed income. As someone who has done piecemeal sessional teaching for a pittance, with no benefits, I can assure you that this post is way better than the alternative. Departments that ask their administration to pay temporary faculty a living wage complete with benefits ought to be enthusiastically praised. Save your fury for the departments that hire sessionals on a per course basis for as little pay as they can get away with.
I actually completely disagree that 3-3-2 is like 4-4. Quarters are shorter than semesters, so the class hours are not comparable. Also, the difficulty of teaching more and more courses doesn't increase in a linear way; 4 is much harder than 3 which is much harder than 2 etc. So having 3 as the max at any one time is a big boon compared to 4.
Just my two cents...
Ugh. You people really are starting to look pretty stupid. Here's what the ad says: "three in term 1, three in term 2, and two in the summer of 2013."
See what that means? Do people understand the teaching load now?
According to the ad (which, btw, is posted next door and on the apaclassics page), "The current minimum salary at the rank of Assistant Professor is $66,243.00 plus benefits."
There is nothing tricky or unclear about this ad, except that there is, perhaps, some chance that it actually pays MORE than stated here (I infer that from the "current minimum" phrasing).
For a bunch of people in a field that prides itself on being more literate and intelligent than everyone else out there, we sure do make a great mess of things sometimes.
Sincere apologies to McMaster, whose faculty will have to read dozens or even hundreds of applications written by people barely capable of reading the job announcement. Also, I will not be applying to either of the positions advertised, so I have nothing to gain or lose from any of this. Except perhaps the satisfaction of having helped some people learn how to read good(er).
Geez, calm down. I not unreasonably assumed that the x-y-z format referred to a quarter system arrangement, as it typically does in the U.S., with the summer (or most of it) free. And no, I didn't read the ad because I'm not on the market. Very sorry. I will try to do better in the future.
I don't know what's up with Winnipeg. I would swear that when I was looking at their website when the job ad came out there two people listed as Assistant Professor (sessional), but now one is listed as just Assistant Professor and one Assistant Professor (sessional). But perhaps I have just become confused in exhaustion of the job search season.
Does anyone have more information on the Stanford confusion on the wiki? Someone posted something on rumor, then it seemed to go to fact, and then someone else called it rumor. Have they offered the job to someone?
Kudos to the classics faculty at McMaster for wrangling a good salary for their VAP gig. You want to see some examples of how universities and colleges take advantage of desperation, go here:
http://adjunctproject.com/
Re: Winnipeg, the faculty listed on the webpage are all TT or tenured (both of the former sessionals have since been converted to TT lines), and the ad is for an additional TT hire. There is no inside candidate, if that's what you're worried about.
Anonymous said
"If you think that MacMaster is paying good money, you are not familiar with the Canadian tax-system. You will get peanuts after taxes. You will also be happy to be teaching your butt off (though there is a discount on the summer load. thanks!) You would not know what to do with your spare time in Hamilton!"
February 25, 2012 5:07 AM
.... But isn't this true for most places in the US and for most of the jobs posted? I'm a Canadian who doesn't live in Hamilton, but whose had reason to visit a few times, and I'd say it compares well to many similar places in Canada (and probably the US too). It's easy to get around, affordable, and, as has been mentioned here, it's less than an hour from Toronto. Plus, it is a real JOB, hardly something to sneeze at (while I acknowledge that the courseload is heavy, although not unusually so). And for those with 'spare time', the library at Mac is pretty decent (check out the catalogue online). Whoever explained the taxes is right on; it's a different system, with money distributed differently, reflecting a different values system (not to get too political in this forum). But I'm pretty sure you could live pretty well in Hamilton on what is being offered.
"I'm a Canadian who doesn't live in Hamilton, but whose had reason to visit a few times, and I'd say it compares well to many similar places in Canada (and probably the US too)."
are u sure u live in an English-speaking country?
soon the PS will be posting adverts for jobs that have already been offered and filled.
No need to be hostile. This is very convenient for those of us who have time machines.
Is it more heartbreaking to lose in the Final Four than in the first round? Is it better to have gotten a ticket to the Big Dance than to have flamed out in the conference tourney?
I've now gotten two post-campus-visit rejections. Last year I didn't even have an AIA interview. I feel about ten times worse this year than I did last year. This fucking sucks. Yeah, AIA interviews and campus visits seem to signal good things, but they don't pay the bills.
All things considered, if I'm not going to get a tenure track job, I think I'd rather know that in December than in February. At least I can hang out with family over the holidays and save a thousand bucks.
I'm now officially hoping my Alma Mater blows it in the conference tourney. What's the point of getting our hopes up in the NCAA if the chances of winning it all are basically zero.
Anybody else with other sports analogies to this miserable experience?
It's like getting fucked in both eyes by a giant two-pronged cock, in whatever sport it is where that happens.
Win one for the Chalcock?
I don't want us to get too sidetracked, but does anyone else think it would be a good idea to add a section to the wiki or the blog (or somewhere else) where we shame those institutions that never say anything about the status of our application until months after they've already decided not to consider us further? For example, if the application deadline was November 1, 2011, and the committee met in early December to draw down their long shortlist, then couldn't they have the decency to cut the rest of us loose at that time? Or, having completed those first-round interviews and selected a small handful for further on-campus consideration, wouldn't it be reasonable for any institution with any idiotic policies to just mention to the people who didn't even make the first cut that they are no longer under consideration? By now we've all figured it out, but this process really does show just how unkind and self-centered a lot of us (and our institutions) are. I'd even be fine with one of those emails where all of our identities are disclosed upon rejection - it makes me feel like I'm a part of something bigger!
Yes, I'm pretty sure that if you lose a cricket match by scoring fewer runs than wickets given over in consecutive innings then after the test each player are poked in the eyes with a two-pronged dildo, commonly known in Australia as a "Chalcock."
I can see the similarity to the Classics job market. Definitely.
Anything at all about Western Kentucky University?
My sources say it's in Western Kentucky.
Western Kentucky had a pretty decent basketball team at one point. Don't think they'll make the NCCA tourney this year, though. That's a good thing, right?
3:53 wrote, in part:
"For example, if the application deadline was November 1, 2011, and the committee met in early December to draw down their long shortlist, then couldn't they have the decency to cut the rest of us loose at that time?"
Several posts have said it before, but I'll say it again: Many institutions have policies, in our case set by the Provost and the President, that the SC cannot send out ANY rejection letters, not any, until after the successful candidate has signed a contract.
I agree, this is a stupid policy. But it's not under the control of the SC. And any SC that violated it would be endangering the whole department's chances for future approval of budgetary requests, sabbatical replacement hires, etc.; if the administration pegs you as scoff-laws and troublemakers, there can be very unpleasant consequences. (This may be especially true at a very small institution such as the one where I work.)
Again: I agree it's a stupid policy.
To 3:53, I definitely hear your frustrations, but many of our institutions have HR policies that we can't change (I know; we tried) to the effect that until the search is absolutely complete -- contract signed, affirmative action paperwork signed off on, everything -- no one can be officially rejected. I myself don't understand the logic of this since, as you say, everyone knows what's happened if there was no request for an APA interview, or flyback, etc. But still, there you are: it's out of our hands, and I know it's the same situation at many institutions. And shaming, alas, will do nothing to change the minds of the HR folks....
names of the candidates who got the jobs, anyone??!!
Jane something, and John something.
One of them said his name was Outis. I tried to take him out of the running with some giant rocks, but no dice.
I really really wonder about the number of applicants for positions. I applied to UMichigan (did not even get a preliminary interview, but that is not the point), but the secretary did not hide the recipients' list when mailing minority survey. I counted 64 names, including myself. I think that either 1) schools inflate their figures or 2)there must be a very good reason why pp did not apply to UMichigan. Suggestions?
Yes, there was a good reason people didn't apply to Michigan: in the ad, they expressly excluded Homerists, and those who work on tragedy or historiography - surely the three most popular fields in Greek literature. 74 seems a bit low, but I guess people took those exclusions to heart.
I for one don't believe the numbers are inflated; they're pretty consistent in cases where you can compare similar positions: ca. 120 for a prestigious Latin Lit. job (BC & Oberlin) and ca. 200 for a generalist position in a desirable coastal city (SFSU & MIT). Maybe it follows from this that there only around 80-100 serious candidates in Greek Lit. anyways?
Michigan also had an early deadline, and their ad said PhD in hand was required until they changed it at the last minute.
Since someone issued a call for sharing names of who has accepted what jobs, it seems a good time for the annual discussion of this.
As some will remember, there have been unfortunate incidents in the past when people were "outed" before they and/or their institution had told everyone. Ideally, the person him-/herself would post once it is safe to, but not everyone does. If you know with absolute certainty that someone has a position then you should ONLY post this information if you can be equally certain that it is safe to. The best thing to do would be to wait a month from the time that the wiki shows a job has been offered and accepted, since that gives more than enough time for those involved to tell those who need to hear it from them. The APA, after all, releases this information eventually, so there is no reason not to do so on the wiki, but there is reason not to do so stupidly or thoughtlessly.
Anyone know what's going on with the UNC-Chapel Hill job? The wiki, I see, claims the search failed. True? Is UNC's search really over for this year? Is this another case where department faculty couldn't agree, so no one is hired?
If it is true that UNC-CH failed their search then the faculty are a bunch of numbnuts. How can you fail to hire somebody in the greatest buyers' market since 1974? They should all get a cut in salary, or the provost should make one of *them* go on the market, as punishment.
If it is true that UNC-CH failed their search then the faculty are a bunch of numbnuts. How can you fail to hire somebody in the greatest buyers' market since 1974? They should all get a cut in salary, or the provost should make one of *them* go on the market, as punishment.
February 28, 2012 7:34 PM
I don't agree with all of this, but the first half seems rather good. How in the world does the department justify something like this? Can they really go back to the administration and ask for the funds to rerun the same search again next year? Is there any chance they create a 1 year to fill the gap, or is that crazy?
Am I reading the wiki correctly? Did the postdoc in ancient history at Columbia actually get cancelled *after* they had offered it to someone? That person is getting all my sympathy right now, though honestly I need it for myself.
What's the deal with ISAW? I didn't get the rejection letter, but I haven't heard anything at all. Anyone else in this boat?
The Columbia post-doc was first offered, then declined by the one to whom it was offered, and only then canceled. You should sympathize with the Columbia faculty. They are the ones suffering right now.
The UNC-Chapel Hill search has indeed failed, and will automatically be renewed next year per university policies. A 1-year is unlikely, since they haven't had one of those in at least 6 years, perhaps much longer.
In that case I do sympathize with the Columbia faculty (while reserving most of it now for myself, since I'm the one who'll have trouble eating next year).
@ 10.45pm, I'm in the same boat. Do we know whether the person on the wiki who got a rejection letter had had an interview before getting rejected?
Did anyone else just pay Interfolio six dollars to mail your letters to Carleton by Feb. 28, only to have the search be cancelled on March 1?
Being on the job market sucks.
I most certainly did. Why'd the search get cancelled? 48 hours after the deadline seems like odd timing...
They saw that you applied and couldn't resist the opportunity to disappoint you. The world really is out to get you, Carleton College included.
That's rough. If Carleton, which comes in second only to Oberlin in the semi-annual "Nicest Place on Earth" competition, is out to get you then you must be a thoroughly despicable person.
I do play poker for kittens...
the Buffy references return!
Is it just me or has the Wiki been updated less consistently than in previous years? Are we witnessing the demise, in our own little sphere, of the web 2.0?
time is what turns kittens into cats...
It's just you. The wiki has been far better maintained this year than in years past. More people are contributing, and the number of edits is up.
You Englishmen are always so ... bloody hell ... sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers, bollocks ... oh, no. I'm English!
That lost comment was terribly annoying, so I'm really just posting to get it off the top (bottom) of the list.
Would the kind hearted person who updated the Wilfrid Laurier search be able to provide any information as to the authority of this "friend's" information? Going straight to the on-campus phase makes sense at this relatively late stage in the season, but it's also kind of a major gamble on the part of the department, since this is a TT hire. Any additional info appreciated, but I'll not be offended if it's impossible to offer anything further.
Dammit! I meant "last"!!!
Re: WLU
Canadian schools often go straight to a shortlist and campus visits. This is not unusual: conference interviews are expensive, and their igloos don't have telephones.
What happened with the Memphis search?
Re: WLU
WLU went straight to campus visits for a position in Roman archaeology that would have started academic year 2009-2010. The search was cancelled after the visits due to the economic downturn.
Does anybody know the procedure with Vassar and the Blegen Fellowship? Are there interviews? Has anybody heard anything yet?
I emailed Vassar about the Blegen Fellowship because of another offer. The chair responded saying that the search is not closed yet but they have a short list. No time frame or anything.
Re Carleton, based on some limited familiarity with the dept., I suspect that what happened was that the current person holding a 2-yr VAP position there was in the running for a TT job elsewhere, and so the dept. advertised a 1-yr position in case the current person did leave. If that person recently found out that he did not get the TT job and would be staying at Carleton, that would have caused the dept. to cancel the search.
You might blame the dept. for starting the search prematurely, but I believe the job announcement did say that it was only a possible position, not a certain one. Still, I sympathize with those who
went through the effort to apply and even pay money only to have one more opportunity disappear.
I'm so crappy, I don't even get the REJECTION emails!
So what's the deal with the Placement Service website being down for a week in the height of VAP season?
They figure our spirits are so low by now we won't really mind.
And they are correct.
whoever said this before was right. The Michigan job was a sham.
Why was the Michigan job a sham?
Based on the info available on the wiki the Michigan job seems not have gone to an inside candidate and I can't see what would justify describing it as a sham. ???
Anybody know what happened with the University of Missouri VAP? Was that an inside hire? I'm just curious, I don't really have anything against inside hires.
I have seen and heard all the candidates for that position. I repeat my claim: the Michigan job was a sham.
You don't have a "position", you've merely thrown out an entirely unsubstantiated claim. And as long as you are unable to offer a convincing, or even coherent, argument, I, like most other rational people on this board, will continue to assume that you are just another instance of sour grapes.
UM does not put on their website the names of those who came for job talks (indeed, the guy who got the job is the only one who shows up if you do a search). I do not name the other candidates because this is the rule on this wiki. I repeat: UM job was a sham.
You can repeat your "The Michigan job was a sham" mantra as much as you want, I suppose. But even if you're right--what is the point of writing something like this? It's not informative, it's not interesting, it's just mean-spirited. Have some dignity.
Please don't feed the trolls.
The VAP at Missouri has been offered and I believe accepted; the new hire is not an "inside" candidate. I haven't updated the wiki because I'm not sure whether this is privileged information or not, but you asked, so I'm telling you.
Thanks for the info on Missouri.
Two Questions:
1. Why do we need a Digital Classics Association?
2. Will FV be its centrepiece?
Amherst's ad for a visiting 1-yr reads: "Applications received by March 23, 2012, will receive full consideration." But apparently (according to the wiki) they now have a short list and are ready to interview. WTF?
Some departments have little concern for the amount of time (and money) applicants spend in putting together their materials. It's too bad, but another important lesson for us junior types - when we (eventually) run things, they had better not go like this!
So, I posted a while back with a question as a first time-job marketer. Everyone told (warned) me that going on the market would be bad, but I never imagined how much the whole experience would change me.
For those of you who have been on the market before, how do you cope with all the rejection?
Just make sure you're surrounded by real people who really care about you. This job business has little to do with real life, and not getting a permanent job the first (or second, or third) time out rarely reflects on you as a candidate - it tells you only that places where you applied had other candidates who more exactly fit the profile that they're trying to add to their team. This can mean all sorts of things. Having been rejected outright or completely ignored by a huge range of institutions, I know the sting of rejection (especially when you've made it to the interviews-on-campus phase; being ignored after that is particularly hurtful), and I also know that I'm not a terrible candidate or a rotten person. In fact, I'm quite awesome. And a lot of people know that. If I have to occasionally ask someone to remind me how great I am, it's no more than most people require in the course of their career.
Anonymous said...
So, I posted a while back with a question as a first time-job marketer. Everyone told (warned) me that going on the market would be bad, but I never imagined how much the whole experience would change me.
For those of you who have been on the market before, how do you cope with all the rejection?
March 12, 2012 12:58 PM
I post this as someone who has gone through 5 rounds of the job market and no t-t job. Some snarky people on this board (some of whom have not hired me) would say it is time to hang it up. I'll leave that for another day. I have a respectable career and research agenda, to put it mildly. That said, the process is thankless. Your experience with rejection is hard to process. People will say, "It's not personal" - but you may read it as being personal. It is hard to call, as we are all different. If you take your work fairly seriously, it will always feel personal. The best thing is not to get mired in that but to put yourself into the mood that best motivates you to go forward. If that mood is anger that generates progress, do it; if it is slap happy c'est la vie nonchalance, do that. But go forward if it is to this odd pursuit you are most committed. If not, there is no shame in finding happiness and rewards in some other line of work; there are many that are tangential to this one and some of them are a bit less thankless. But my advice is fight the ogres, slay the dragon, hold the bridge - b/c why not?
Two great comments in a row. Shining examples of the positive capacity that this blog, and that we as a community more generally, possess when we earnestly rally behind one another.
anyone know what happened with the searches as Texas Tech? did they tank?
Re: Texas Tech (Archaeology)
My information tells me that they were going to move forward with a candidate around the first week of March, so they may well still be in process with that.
Re: Texas Tech (Art History)
They look to have been on a similar timeline, but it's a bit trickier to get an answer out of the search committee there.
Conclusion: there's no reason to think that either has tanked. They're probably both waiting on candidates' decisions by now.
The Texas Tech archaeology job still has yet to have all of its visitors come to campus, so I hear.
The Texas Tech art history position has also not had all their visitors come to campus yet (unclear how many candidates were invited).
Two great comments yet, at the same time, we should be aware that our academy is not as transparent as it purports to be.
connections, pedigrees, friendships and what not often count more than real merits or publishing records. This is the very SAD truth. I agree with the bottom line that the right attitude is not to give up .
So, did Amherst really proceed to interviews before the deadline for applications closed?
Given what I know about that department (see the previous post about "connections and pedigrees"), it would not be at all surprising, but still, I hope it's not true.
"Amherst's ad for a visiting 1-yr reads: "Applications received by March 23, 2012, will receive full consideration." But apparently (according to the wiki) they now have a short list and are ready to interview."
"Proceeding" to interviews does not mean that applications are not still being received and given full consideration. Presumably, further interviews will be conducted after more applications are received and up until March 23rd.
Based on what I know (but I'm surely no authority, I just know some people), Amherst has sought to hire the best teachers and scholars, with scrupulous attention to the fairness of the process and absolute respect for every applicant.
It's been said here before... but always, always, always apply well before any stated deadline, and if possible, near the front half of the application period. Even for TT jobs, SCs hardly ever wait for the closing date to start reading dossiers -- there are simply too many to wait! -- and in the post-APA scrum that is the main VAP market, SCs are eager to get the best candidates before they are all taken. I know lots of places scheduling interviews way ahead of the "best consideration" date, with a view to making a hire if they find a good fit, regardless of the posted deadline. So it just makes sense to give yourself the best possible chance to avoid last-minute technical snafus, and to get a reading by the least exhausted / most interested eyes.
Did that just happen? Did the APA PS just post the Toronto job ad today (March 16th) when its application deadline is... today?
No. It was advertised a long time ago, but for some reason the posting date has been changed. This has happened with other jobs a few times.
Is the TT Bishop's University job an inside hire situation? The ad perfectly describes their current VAP and is posted in none of the usual places (only on the university's website).
From the website of the classics dept at Toronto I can see the jobs advertised there with TODAY as a deadline! Ah, Toronto, are these two job done-deals for inside candidates? Why bother advertising? NOT SURPRISED THOUGH.
As I just said, and as you'd know if you'd been checking, those two Toronto jobs were advertised via the APA Placement Service weeks ago.
The Canadian Classical Bulletin still preserves the correct date: they were advertised via a supplementary issue on 2/16.
Given that the Bishop's position seems to have not been advertised and the description fits their current sessional, it looks like an inside hire. But wonky job ads and inside hires seem to be the trend in Canada this year.
For all your complaining, you MC types seem to be doing quite well this year. This is based on the wiki and two friends I know who lost out on generalist positions to your ilk.
All the more reason why we should string them up. Ingrates and pillagers.
What's an MC type? Am I an MC type, or do I hate them?
Thanks for the clarification regarding the Toronto ad. I hadn't been following it, and while I've come to expect fairly little from the PS, it's nice to know that they weren't this behind the times.
What's an MC type? Am I an MC type, or do I hate them?”
First, do you spit rhymes? If not, you are not an MC. If you do, you may belong to one of two categories of MC. Here's a simple test to determine which category you belong to. Spit some rhymes. OK, now, were those rhymes you just spat dope, or were they wack? If the former, you are a "legit" MC; if the latter, you are a "sucker" MC.
Damn. Sucker.
I resemble some of these remarks. Time to get back to my Latin prep, sucker philologists.
Any more news on this "second position" at Maryland...?
Say what now?
According to the wiki, Maryland's been given permission for 2 hires, but it looks like only 1 position has been offered (or reported on FV) so far.
There are several imminent departures in the department at Maryland, so it makes sense that they are trying to make multiple hires. Maybe that's why they interviewed so many people in the first round.
How many did they interview in the first round?
I cannot remember the exact number (either 21 or 24) but it was over 20 (some in APA-style interviews before the APA).
Hi all -- Just a friendly reminder not to put other people's names up on the wiki. Even if you post the status of a job, please let the candidate put their own name up, don't do it for them. Thanks.
No, the informal policy, established a few years back, is to wait a full month from the time a job is accepted to post someone else's name. There can be great harm done posting a name right after a position is accepted, but there can be none a month later. And since not all candidates check this site, for some jobs the information would never get filled in if not for third parties. But people absolutely should NOT be hasty in "outing" new hires.
Well, in my case, it must have been an over zealous department member who posted my name (I had told no one except my family, and I'm pretty sure they don't hang out on FV). Imagine my surprise to receive congratulations when I returned to work.
Why post names at all? The wikis for other disciplines don't seem to name names.
I know of at least two wikis that post names. As long as people follow the informal policy mentioned previously, I think it's fine. I'm all for transparency as the only party that might want to keep things quiet is a department that conducts a half-ass search. The only people who really know the hire (not personally connected to the hire) is the department and failed finalists. Names also get posted by university fall schedules. As long as it's not a bitter finalist, I think we're fine. What universities and departments do is their business.
I think it is often graduate students who post these things before the proper time, which I suppose cannot be helped. But I wish departments told them the stakes before giving them the information.
Me want job!
Anonymous 5:53,
That absolutely sucks, and it seems like you have at least one thoughtless colleague. (Join the club!) People should have the decency to let people such as yourself tell friends, references, other institutions that might be considering you, etc. Which is why we have the informal rule.
Anonymous 7:04,
The names eventually all get listed in the APA newsletter, so your argument logically boils down to "Why list them sooner than sometime late this summer?" And the answer, of course, is why the heck not? This is yet another example of the internet providing information more efficiently than a media dinosaur.
Nothing says "welcome to the department" like a weenie for a future colleague.
Is anyone actually 100% confident in all of the information on the wiki? Isn't everything just a rumor until confirmed? If you are concerned, just delete the data, deny the rumor ("Not everything you read on the wiki is true"), and don't confirm the rumor on the blog. I didn't quite believe the wiki on the present question until I saw the blog posts here.
I'm with 7:04. My experience has been similar to 5:53, with letter writers and friends sending congratulations and referencing FV. What's the gain in (anonymously!) posting names of other people? It simply seems to embarrass.
p.s. 9:59, it's not that someone is trying to hide information; it's that one wants to tell various people oneself. Your suggestions is a bit silly, don't you think? Imagine replying: "The wiki is unreliable, don't believe everything you read. [dramatic pause] Now let me tell you my good news etc etc and thanks for writing me a letter."
"Nothing says "welcome to the department" like a weenie for a future colleague."
Doesn't every department have one of these? Just hope that s/he isn't the tenured faculty member who wants to be your best friend for purely social reasons. You veterans know what I'm talking about.
To the person who suggested that no harm is done if something erroneous or premature is posted because it can always be deleted, you are mistaken. While information disappears from the main page it stays in the page history. As we should all know by now, it is very hard to remove information from the internet once it has been posted.
If, as this person seems to be suggesting, the news of their new job got back to their home institution even before they had returned from their campus interview, that is really inappropriate and I can only imagine that a young and over excited grad student would post the information so quickly. It would be unusual, however, for a candidate get a job offer while still on campus (unless this is a UK job) and might suggest the department is really excited about this hire.
At the same time there seems to be some suggestion that it should be the candidate's prerogative to release the information when and if they see fit. And I don't think that is the case. This is not just about the person being hired, it is also about the department that has done the hiring. This is as much about them as it is about you. Once you have signed a contract with a school, there is no onus on them to keep it a secret. Before you have signed a contract yes, but after you have signed, not so much. Though it would be an unthinking colleague who would deliberately spread the news before you had been allowed adequate time to tell your letter writers, colleagues, friends, etc.
But as for "I only told my family and they aren't hanging on on FV", anyone who has been in Classics for a while should know that news (and gossip) has a tendency to travel fast. What do you think will be the central topic of discussion over drinks at CAMWS if not who got which job where and what the hiring trends are in this brutal market?
Which brings me to my last point - it is also not just about you and your new department but about the discipline as a whole. As we have seen on FV there are a number of people wondering if they should keep slogging it out in the job market or move on with their lives. Knowing who is marketable is really important information for these folk, as it is for supervisors who need to encourage their students to push hard in order to have defended before the fall market opens up, or to hold back a year and get a publication or two out. And if it is a lateral move of someone currently in a tenure track position at one school to another, that would hold out the hope of a new VAP position still to be announced this year and a T-T line opening up next year. In a market like this those who didn't get a job this year need all the hope they can get. Being a good colleague works in a multitude of ways.
Blah, blah, blah...blah, blah, blah. You're post is a microcosm of classical philology over the past fifty years - lots of talking but not much really being said. Now who's up for a grant proposal to produce another translation of Homer or Vergil?
Close, but I believe that's "your"...
Someone took the bait. That anon is either high or really evil...
Does someone think that there are grants being given to translate ancient texts? Or to edit ancient texts? Or to comment upon ancient texts? Or theorize about ancient texts? Please, o please, do tell me where I, as a philologist, can apply for a grant to fund my research (yes, I do know about postdoctoral fellowships, and I do know about the small change travel grants that get advertised from time to time).
Evil, pure evil. It's like taking candy from a baby.
Babies aren't really supposed to eat candy, are they? It sounds like you're a do-gooder to me.
I'll have two eggs over medium with some sausage, please. Oh, shit, this isn't a Denny's? I hadn't noticed.
There is little money available to do the hard work of carefully editing texts, to patiently build substantial commentaries, and to produce lasting philological scholarship. There is, however, gobs of money available to dig up random objects while enjoying the beautiful sunshine, to drink lots of random alcohol at night, and to hook up with random undergrads and volunteers at all hours of the day.
So, I ask myself, why am I in in the library early in the morning on a beautiful spring break Saturday, while my MC colleagues are somewhere in Italy? Hint: "For the Benjamins" is NOT a good answer
Virtue is its own reward.
if you think funding for archaeological fieldwork is easy to come by, then you have been breathing too many mold spores from your manuscripts. do't think that archaeologists are rolling in cash - the competition for what funds there are is exceedingly fierce, and more so every year. Loeb money, ACLS money, American Philosophical Society money is out there to support work on texts, along with lots of post-docs and other prize fellowships.
Sucker Philologist, you're living in an alternate reality if you think that's what the life of us archaeologists is really like. I sincerely hope that was a poor attempt at sarcasm. Actually, you're more than welcome to come on my project this summer (as long you can pay the program fee which barely covers our minimally equipped effort) and see how cushy it really is. I guarantee you'd be bitching about how you miss the library after two days.
Oh, God, is this another turn in the "My Life Sucks Worse than Yours" contest? It is like having two five-year-olds in the back seat.
Think outside the box, reach across disciplines, and present innovative research/teaching for a broad audience (not the handful of professional classicists out there). If anything, classics is still inordinately well funded thanks to wealthy donors and Gilded Age foundations that still view it as a pillar of western education. Stop with the largely irrelevant and inbred research. Just because it can be done does not mean it should be done. Stop pumping money into clumsy, indiscriminate big digs because of tradition. We can always learn a bit more but the returns are meager for the outsized investment. For every Joukowsky the discipline lures in, there are a handful of young Rockefellers and Mellons who could care less about it. The discipline as presently construed is not sustainable in the long run.
Think outside the box
There is something amusing about a person using the epitome of a mindless cliché to encourage others to think creatively and innovate.
Geez, cut the guy/gal some slack. Yes, we all think in cliches when we're thinking and writing quickly -- you too, 2:49, whether you admit it or not. Read for the substance, not your ability to score snark-points in the snark-fest that this blog seems so often (to me, a mere lurker) to descend into.
8:41, you just violated the lurkers' code of ethics. The union will be sending you a letter shortly.
"Think outside the box, reach across disciplines, and present innovative research/teaching for a broad audience (not the handful of professional classicists out there)."
There are people doing this. Ian Morris and Kathleen Coleman come to mind. Sadly, there are still too many of us still trying to figure out who killed Homer when the rest of the world has moved on years ago.
we all think in cliches when we're thinking and writing quickly
And here we have identified our problem. You people are all thinking too fast!!! If you would just stop thinking so fast all the time, you would be able to think outside the box.
I, for one, intend to party like it's 1720 once my translation of the Iliad is under contract. Who's the sucker now, grubby archys! Does anyone know if Bernard Lintot is still in business?
"The discipline as presently construed is not sustainable in the long run."
Well, it's basically running like a Ponzi scheme as it is. PhD programs, generally at elite universities, are pumping out more graduates to justify their existence as non-elite schools cut programs. We've deluded ourselves into thinking that Latin pedagogy will save us so our well meaning leaders have unwittingly made us into academia's version of the Tea Party. We know this can't end well.
More importantly, we have failed to articulate for a broader public the purpose of the humanities (it's not just Classics). If anyone wants to, there is still a little time to right that ship before the Ponzi scheme comes crashing in upon itself.
I give the discipline twenty years or so before deans at elite research programs (like mine) start to realize that it's not in their best interests to support programs that are cranking out PhD's whose job prospects are worse when they come out than when they entered.
In the short term, jobs prospects should be better than they have been for the last few years.
Yes, the humanities problem afflicts us generally, but I propose that classics has additional problems that most others do not have. There is increasing pressure to diversify curricula and we're obvious targets for replacement. We're considered (unfairly for the most part) an outdated, white person's discipline, low hanging fruit for administrators. I'm not sure if there's anything we can do to change this perception in twenty years (maybe at specific universities, but I don't see it happening as a whole). We generally have the support of other humanities disciplines, but if (when?) it becomes "us or them," guess who'll bite it? Look around. It's already happening. The only departments more in peril are those based on even more obscure cultures/languages (Akkadian, Sumerian, Hittite, etc.), but how many of these are still around? We're basically Constantinople ca. 1400. Send ships to the West. Welcome Catholicism. I don't think it'll help unless we drastically shake things up internally (not happening outside a few departments).
(not happening outside a few departments)
Such as?
Yep, I'm not too worried about Latin and Greek programs at obscure colleges/universities. We've already lost secondary education for the most part. If we lose the solid schools that make up the bulk of higher education, I'm not sure if classics could even survive at the top schools that conferred our PhDs. At the minimum, they would be severely diminished and viewed as curiosities.
The solution is to leave the USA if possible. Classics is considerably more vibrant elsewhere. One should want to do this for other, obvious reasons anyway.
Where? If so, they must be overproducing as well or sending over their dregs since we seem to get many more foreign applicants here than vice versa.
I thought that there was more money for classics in the US than overseas.
Probably so, but I've discovered that talking out of my ass is therapeutic.
"Where? If so, they must be overproducing as well or sending over their dregs since we seem to get many more foreign applicants here than vice versa."
Well put.
Classics and the other Humanities will be safe at America's elite private universities. What we are really witnessing is the bifurcation of educational/life opportunities for the rich vs. (what's left of) the middle class and poor. If funding priorities at state-funded institutions continue (meaning Republican/Tea Party legislatures are re-elected), as in the Victorian era and before, only the upper class will be afforded the opportunity and ability to cultivate, debate, intervene in our collective culture, history, humanity unmediated. The underclasses will take what's given to them or shut up.
At the risk of offending the dominant ideology of this blog, it was the utopian ideal of equal access to academia that landed me in this sh*t hole of a job market. I do not see any reason to believe that there ever was or ever will be a time when it was economically viable to pursue the liberal arts for their own sake. I do, however, think that it has been extremely worthwhile for me to cultivate, debate, and intervene in our collective culture. If government schools are short on money, the real problem is that they have failed to articulate their public good, just like the rest of us.
The problem is we're in a viscous cycle. All our advisors came out of traditional, elite programs and research/teach in the same manner. They, in turn, train us to research and teach in the same way, which makes us all the more ill-equipped to advocate and work at less-than-elite schools.
How many of us are trained to be truly innovative as judged by the greater academic world? Even if we were, how many jobs would be out there for us? Departments, filled with classicists or not, almost always search for someone who fits the traditional mold of a classicist. This just reinforces the notion that programs should train graduates in a traditional manner - rinse and repeat. For us to "shake things up," we would need students and programs to go out on a limb and hope there's a job waiting for them at the end. Any takers? This isn't the sciences, which reward cutting edge innovation that can be out there at times. We grind it out and expect the next generation to move the ball, not go for the deep bomb once in a while. Unfortunately, this mindset is increasingly not tolerated in academia today, which is why we can teach all the usual "sexy" classes we want and not get very far with it.
So we're elite-trained scholars producing scholarship that the academy considers esoteric and elitist more than innovative and elite in the 21st century. Sounds about right.
So we're elite-trained scholars producing scholarship that the academy considers esoteric and elitist more than innovative and elite in the 21st century. Sounds about right.
Look, I think all the concern about making Classics relevant is nice and all, but here's the deal. You work on really, really old things made and done by people who didn't speak English or Spanish. The rest of the academy is never, ever going to regard you as relevant. Look at it this way: no matter what you do, you are always going to be less relevant than the Middle Ages, and it's extremely difficult to be less relevant than the Middle Ages.
So, maybe a tiny bit can be done at the margins, and Classics can be regarded as a tiny bit less irrelevant than it currently is. But I think that the idea that anything major can be done here is delusional.
There you have it. Last one turn the lights off.
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