Good point -- just saw that one and new one from Howard. But this is my other complaint -- why, in an age of iPhones, do I have to log on to check the list? Why can't it be an RSS feed vel sim., where listings show up on my device as they're finalized? I know it will never happen, because they want to charge for access. But that doesn't prevent me from being bitter about it. Cue senseless emoticon ----> ;-[
I don't know anything about the Howard department's status, but people should be warned that the school itself seems to be a pretty wretched place. I know a senior professor there -- through a non-classics friend -- and over the years he has told me the most horrifying things involving administrative incompetence, corruption, and lots of other problems. Stuff that would have made the front page of the Washington Post if it had leaked, and some stuff that should have ended up in court. (Yes, since you're thinking it, some problems are those found elsewhere, but Howard seems an especially messed up place.)
So should someone here have a choice between the Howard job and another it might be good to keep this in mind.
Here's a fama: UW Madison is no longer looking for a Hellenist but in fact is looking for a Roman epic person? Can anyone confirm? I have this news from two different sources now, but I would have thought that Madison would have emended their ad if this were the case. Let speculation commence?
How reliable are your sources? People at madison? People who know people at madison? And, if the rumor is true, what does it say about their department?
I have heard the Wisconsin rumor. It has come around attached to a "good source." Which means there's a substantial likelihood that it's total bullshit. But who knows? Maybe it's true. Can you afford to take a chance on its truth or falsehood? So I guess they're getting a lot of applications they're not interested in. Sympathies to them if the rumor's not their doing. If it is, well ... they asked for it.
Personally, I suspect the rumor was spread by postal workers worried about the ongoing collapse in volume of mail.
The wiki indicates that folks have received acknowledgements of materials received from Oberlin, Colgate, and Cincinnati - I haven't heard back from *any* of those places, though, and got my applications in well before the deadlines. To set my mind at ease - there are others who have applied who haven't heard about receipt of application yet, right? Right?
Well, there was an automated email from Academic Jobs from Colgate, but I have not heard from Oberlin at all.
Nonetheless ... relax! I'm sure they have your application and if it's good enough, they'll find you. Until then it's probably best not to think about it.
Haven't heard back from Oberlin, either, and I also had my application in early. No worries. As Silenus said, I'm sure they'll let us know if something's incomplete.
Anonymous 4:27 PMsaid... "Here's a fama: UW Madison is no longer looking for a Hellenist but in fact is looking for a Roman epic person? Can anyone confirm?"
As written the ad says "Expertise in Homer and archaic Greek epic *****preferred****" This is not wrong and has not changed. I've heard they might be willing to consider Roman epic, but this is certainly not a preference.
So, here's a complaint in the form of a question. Why have only 33 people admitted to the Classics Wiki that they are using it? I think we can all agree that we'd prefer if only 32 other people were on the market this year, but let's get real. What gives?
What to make of the Montreal job? The ad says both 1) proficiency in French is required (it's the language of instruction, after all) and 2) that the university "provides support for newly recruited faculty to attain proficiency in French". I'd work my ass off to get my spoken French up to par for this job, but I doubt anyone would understand me in those classes I'd teach in the first few semesters. Any point in applying?
"So, here's a complaint in the form of a question. Why have only 33 people admitted to the Classics Wiki that they are using it? I think we can all agree that we'd prefer if only 32 other people were on the market this year, but let's get real. What gives?"
Some people look at the wiki, but will never add to it. Just the way it is, I'm afraid. Also, some people actually don't look at the wiki. I know, sounds crazy. But (almost) certainly true.
"2) that the university "provides support for newly recruited faculty to attain proficiency in French". I'd work my ass off to get my spoken French up to par for this job, but I doubt anyone would understand me in those classes I'd teach in the first few semesters. Any point in applying?"
I think that the point was that the promise of support for people looking to improve their French was itself proof that it wasn't inconceivable that someone not currently proficient in French could get the job. And that seems right.
What I'm totally ignorant of is what the disfavored nationalities are in Quebec. I know that the one thing you don't want to be for jobs in Canada more generally is a U.S. citizen (Commonwealth seems fine, though). But specifically in Quebec is it U.S. citizens, English Canadians, and Commonwealth citizens who are anathema? Or just English Canadians? Or just U.S. citizens? Or are U.S. citizens OK because English Canadians hate them? Or just to be safe does one only hire people from Quebec and France?
I am suddenly alarmed and disturbed to realize, now for the first time, that there are eight million people living to the north of me, in Quebec, and I don't know whether they hate me or not. That's a lot of people, pretty close by, not to know that about. I assume they will attack Ontario first, though, so I guess that will give me time to run.
I know that the one thing you don't want to be for jobs in Canada more generally is a U.S. citizen (Commonwealth seems fine, though).
This is not exactly. There used to be government rules that stipulated that jobs had to be offered to Canadians first, but those rules have been eased considerably. U.S. citizens are just as eligible for these jobs (even though the language of some ads makes you think otherwise).
Montreal alum here. When I did my undergrad there I was taught by four professors who were not Canadians (not when they were hired anyway), two of them Americans. One was definitely going through some intensive French training, and we all thought his accent was quite charming.
As far as I know, the UdM tends to cast its net pretty wide when running a search, and that's why this job has been advertized on the APA and on European lists. The problem for an American applicant is that you would be competing with Europeans, and god knows the academic market is even crappier over there. Those applicants might not be perceived as flight risks and you might. I'd say that's something to address in an interview. On the flip side, French academia has lost a lot of its prestige in Quebec over the last generation, and Classics/Ancient History majors are now encouraged to go to American grad schools instead (well I was, and four others I can think of). This could help you.
If you are genuinely interested in the job, you should apply!
Sometimes in this crazy world faculty members with boundary issues develop their own visions for the future and tell their grad students and former grad students their visions as though they were inside scoops. These "scoops" get repeated and eventually end up on message boards.
Second: If you don't think you could attain proficiency even with their crash course, then your French just isn't good enough for this job. They are giving some latitude here, and are basically saying that they will meet applicants halfway by considering people who have only decent French. But, how could they possibly hire someone who, by his/her own admission, could not actually teach courses at the university? That's what I meant when I said you had answered your own question.
Under the Stanford Arch job someone has written "Invitation requested by eMail 11/18/11." I suppose this is a garbled version of "interview requested"?
Seems like. I imagine it was an "invitation" to be interviewed that was extended via email. Or maybe the poster meant Evite. That would be great, if all of this were conducted via Evite.
I still don't know the answer to the question, "does Quebec hate the rest of Canada more than it hates the U.S., less, or both equally?" I tried Googling "whom do French Canadians hate," with disappointing results.
So there's no abstract book (nor any electronic equivalent) for the APA Placement Service this year, correct?
There has never been an abstract book for the placement service. They are however drawing up plans to put out an abstract expressionist book next year. Pollocks, De Koonings, etc. Nothing to do with finding a job, but it'll be something to look at while you're hanging around in the hallway.
Seriously, though, do you mean the CV book? I think they stopped doing that a year or two ago. If you really do mean abstracts, though, I believe that they still do the old paper abstract book for the panels, and post the abstracts online as well. Never had anything to do with the placement service, though.
Re the UW-Madison job. The search committee sent out emails to department chairs letting them know that they are widening their search to consider candidates with other specialties (such as Latin epic) although they are still primarily interested in Homerists (no doubt since Barry Powell is retired).
"It's nothing against you personally, Homerists. I mean, you're great! It's just that we've realized Latinists are smarter, better looking, better smelling and nicer to old ladies; oh, and your applications were on the whole pretty disappointing. I hope we can still be friends."
Would it be good if there were still a c.v. book--but an online one? I always thought it was useful through them both to see what's out there and to see what people put on their cv's, and it what format.
Ah, I see you are still laboring under the misunderstanding that the Placement Service would ever go out of its way to do something helpful for the job seekers who pay to use it.
The CV book was always intended to help people get last-minute interviews at the conference (although I'm not sure that even that had happened much in the past decades). It had nothing to do with letting anxious candidates take a little peek at other candidates' lists of publications to see whose was bigger.
And if you need models for CV format, the Internet is already home to tons of easily accessible CVs. You could even put yours there and link to it in a comment, if you liked. Or someone could volunteer to receive them by e-mail and post them to google docs.
I see that the Placement Service has joined my students in starting Thanksgiving vacation early. Does there remain a pretense that the list of positions will be up to date before the annual meeting? Given that people pay for this service, one would expect a bit less shameless incompetence. That's monopoly for you.
Anybody up for starting a competing placement service?
Anon 7:16, I assume you are a job-seeker. I think the only way the APA will actually listen is if departments (who are really paying through the nose for this "service") kick up a stink about the fact that their jobs are not being posted in a timely fashion, and are now listed in a jumbled and illogical manner on the website.
It would take quite a stink, I think, since we have all known for years that the Placement Service is embarrassingly unorganized. Other disciplines with far larger numbers of material to deal with are way ahead of us on this one. This suggests that the virtual necessity of monopoly isn't solely responsible for the sorry state of the APA/AIA Placement Service. It must contribute, though. Unless enough people with enough clout complain loudly and frequently enough, it won't change because the APA has no bottom-line incentive to make it change. Departments and candidates pay no matter what happens, because they don't have any other options. Perhaps the reason why there isn't enough complaining is that no single department has to put up with the nonsense often enough; or perhaps they simply don't feel it as much on their end.
In any case, I count only five positions posted on the APA site that are not now listed on the Placement Service site: Central Michigan, University of Johannesburg, the University of Minnesota position for a chair in New Testament and Early Christian Studies (i.e., not the papyrology job), the TLL, and the Princeton Society of Fellows. Perhaps I've missed a few in either direction. Not that it matters much at this point; I can't see that it has had any real effect on anybody's job search. It's just annoying.
Do these job ads that say things like "must know how to use PowerPoint" really want us to confirm this in the cover letter? Who on earth doesn't know how to use PowerPoint?
If a classics program actually decides to put in an ad that a candidate needs to know powerpoint, it might be a good indicator of the department's mindset, and so yes, you probably want to give them what they asked for. That said, plenty of great classics teachers never touch powerpoint, wouldn't know the first thing about it, and would probably drive crazy the powerpoint-happy who actually mention it in a job ad...and vice versa.
What type of classics job requires PowerPoint? That's just bizarre unless it's some jack-off-all-trades civ position in some giant humanities department.
Anonymous said... What type of classics job requires PowerPoint? That's just bizarre unless it's some jack-off-all-trades civ position in some giant humanities department.
surely you jest? or are you really that disconnected? yikes.
Anonymous said... What type of classics job requires PowerPoint? That's just bizarre unless it's some jack-off-all-trades civ position in some giant humanities department.
Let us all agree that the above statement was a joke.
As for those who are unable (not unaccustomed, but actually unable) to use Powerpoint or other presentation software, I'd be very surprised if there are more than a handful of recent PhDs who fall into this category. But there is, apparently, at least one department out there that has met people on the market who are incapable of using this software, and committee members at that department are very afraid of meeting any more such people. Apparently.
But there is, apparently, at least one department out there that has met people on the market who are incapable of using this software, and committee members at that department are very afraid of meeting any more such people. Apparently.
There are older faculty who fear and do not themselves use Powerpoint and are impressed by people who know how to use it. No doubt they imagine that this is a special skill that only some candidates will have.
That said, knowing how to use ppt well actually is a special skill that only some candidates will have.
Actually, I'd bet a statistically reliable survey of classics departments, or of recent classics students, would reveal powerpoint is a minority past time. It's hardly weird not to care one bit about it or for it.
Anonymous said... Actually, I'd bet a statistically reliable survey of classics departments, or of recent classics students, would reveal powerpoint is a minority past time. It's hardly weird not to care one bit about it or for it.
did RP post this? jeez, people. go back to your caves.
Yes. It's a little-known fact that Moses actually first tried to communicate the Ten Commandments to the Israelites as bullet points in a neat and professional-looking Powerpoint presentation, but God made him do it over with stone tablets.
Only an idiot would hire or not hire someone based on whether he/she can use PowerPoint. A lot of us got through college just fine without our professors having such a tool, so why this would all of a sudden become a *requirement* is beyond me. Plenty of people can use PowerPoint but still suck as lecturers, I'd wager...
it is completely reasonable for an employer to expect a prospective employee to be technologically relevant. keep in mind that distance education is a top priority in many university systems. asking for basic skills from academics is appropriate to say the least. pontificating from the mount is really not enough - and that it was sufficient for so long is part of what ails the humanities.
Our undergrads, at least, would disagree with you. In eval after eval, the majority message is clear: they want good (emphasis on good) lecturers, and technology is just not a priority. In my experience, it's more of a priority for certain faculty and admins than anyone else. And, in my experience, the ones who don't use it don't criticize colleagues who do nearly as often as the technocrats criticize those who don't play with their toys.
Our undergrads, at least, would disagree with you. In eval after eval, the majority message is clear: they want good (emphasis on good) lecturers, and technology is just not a priority. In my experience, it's more of a priority for certain faculty and admins than anyone else. And, in my experience, the ones who don't use it don't criticize colleagues who do nearly as often as the technocrats criticize those who don't play with their toys.
I think it's ludicrous that so many schools demand that candidates be proficient in the use of chalkboards. I have never used a chalkboard and never felt like I needed to. As long as I am really clear in speaking, there is no need for me to write things on a surface that the whole class can see. Besides, I bet there are lots of people who do use chalkboards who aren't very good lecturers, which proves that chalkboards are useless and maybe even harmful.
So stop trying to ram your chalkboards down our throats, you chalkboard fascists.
And, in my experience, the ones who don't use it don't criticize colleagues who do nearly as often as the technocrats criticize those who don't play with their toys.
likely because they are too out to lunch to notice. yipes. the thoughts expressed by the anti-technology posters here are frightful. backward much, Classicists? keep working hard to help confirm the stereotypes held by your critics.
Those who've posted pro-PowerPoint in the past 24 hrs. seem not to realize that they're mixing apples and oranges. What does telling students about JSTOR and other research databases have to do with whether PowerPoint is a necessary lecture tool?!? (I'll agree that a professor who can't tell his/her students how to go about researching a paper is incompetent.) And as for long-distance teaching, here admittedly I might be wrong, but I doubt that PowerPoint is essential to that. Isn't it rather vidcams and Blackboard or a similar program that's used? Why is PowerPoint essential to that?
And there are LOTS of people who think that PowerPoint is part of the dumbing down of our culture, and can be a deceptively poor way of conveying information. Heck, just go here and read about how it helped cause the second shuttle disaster: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/14/magazine/14POWER.html ! Or go here to learn why some military leaders think it causes trouble: http://blogs.computerworld.com/16006/powerpoint_makes_you_stupid (Yes, these are obviously far more technical fields than ours, but the point holds that PowerPoint is imperfect for conveying information, and in the case of students too many turn off their brains and think they must only know what's in the PowerPoint presentation, instead of thinking.
The bottom line is that if some people wish to use PowerPoint that's fine, but any administrator or professor who expects it of job candidates is an absolute moron who doesn't value diverse teaching approaches, and doesn't truly understand the technology.
And my thinking this has nothing to do with my being a backward classicist -- it has to do with my being open-minded, and recognizing that just because something can be done via technology doesn't mean it must be.
12:52PM: Do you actually know how to use a chalkboard? In my experience, most people under the age of 40 do not.
The chalkboard retains over PowerPoint the simple advantage of letting its user adapt to the occasion. Let's see you reorder your PowerPoint lecture in response to a student's question without fumbling around with your computer and losing the moment. If, that is, you still interact with students at all.
I am happy to admit that my attitude toward these things has everything to do with being a backward classicist. If I were interested in being fashionable, I would have chosen a different profession.
That said, anyone who can't learn how to put together a functional PowerPoint presentation probably shouldn't be employed in a university. Anyone who is proud of their ability to do this should feel ashamed. Be glad they aren't asking for anything hard, like a real knowledge of Greek.
I'm pretty sure the subtext of the rejection letter I just received was: "your application didn't include anything about powerpoint, and we're really committed to multimedia education, so we doubt that you would be a good fit." If only I'd listed my proficiency in powerpoint on my cv, right after the part where I bother to point out I not only have a PhD in Classics, but can also read Greek and Latin, maybe I would have been selected for an interview. Dammit!
how concerned should a novice applicant be if he/she did not get an EOE form via e-mail when everyone else seems to have? The application receipt was confirmed previously by the department. But naturally stress levels are high even for silly things like this. And yes, I've checked spam filters.
there are LOTS of people who think that PowerPoint is part of the dumbing down of our culture, and can be a deceptively poor way of conveying information.
There are also LOTS of people who think that Elvis is still alive, that the moon landings were carried out on a sound stage on Earth, and that the president is foreign-born.
And my thinking this has nothing to do with my being a backward classicist -- it has to do with my being open-minded, and recognizing that just because something can be done via technology doesn't mean it must be.
I think that not recognizing that it takes about 30 minutes to figure out the main features of Powerpoint is a sign that you're maybe a little bit of a backward classicist.
Do you actually know how to use a chalkboard? In my experience, most people under the age of 40 do not.
Well, you’ve embarrassed yourself. One piece of chalk goes in each nostril, I drop a few more down my pants, then if there are any left over I use one to write illegibly on the chalkboard while I continue to lecture, facing the board the whole time. Then I turn back around and position myself so as to block as many students as possible from seeing what I've written.
The chalkboard retains over PowerPoint the simple advantage of letting its user adapt to the occasion. Let's see you reorder your PowerPoint lecture in response to a student's question without fumbling around with your computer and losing the moment.
Usually the chalkboards have not been removed from your classroom. And yes, if you are using a presentation in such a way that you can’t take questions or go off script, you may be using it poorly.
If, that is, you still interact with students at all.
You caught me. I don’t. I am a robot and I do not understand your human ways. Except sarcasm! I just had the new sarcasm software installed. Once I have the sorrow program, I will also be able to be sad that I can never be a human. And once I have the resentment program, you humans had better look out.
That said, anyone who can't learn how to put together a functional PowerPoint presentation probably shouldn't be employed in a university. Anyone who is proud of their ability to do this should feel ashamed. Be glad they aren't asking for anything hard, like a real knowledge of Greek.
But this I agree with! Except for the pissy tone in that little sneer about Greek. Also it was implicit in what you said just above that you didn’t know how to use Powerpoint in a lecture without “fumbling around with your computer and losing the moment” if you got questions, so I’m not sure you know “how to put together a functional PowerPoint presentation.” But maybe the presentation is functional but you’re not functional in the presence of the functional presentation? In that case there’s not really a contradiction there. Whatever the case, though, I mainly agree with this part, so we're friends now, no backsies.
I suspect there's a direct correlation between how big a deal search committees make of Powerpoint and how much your teaching will be micromanaged at such a place.
I think that not recognizing that it takes about 30 minutes to figure out the main features of Powerpoint is a sign that you're maybe a little bit of a backward classicist.
Look, fool, I never said I don't know how to use PowerPoint. (Where did I say, or imply, that?) Used it just recently, in fact. My point has always been that I have zero respect for any administrator or search committee who puts such an extraordinarily high premium on the program as to make it an important search criterion. And my secondary point is that PowerPoint is a rather flawed tool for conveying complicated issues.
I sure hope you're an archaeologist, since your reading skills seem to suck. Perhaps they've atrophied, after having been exposed to too many 10-words-per-screen lectures.
You know you're stressed to the breaking point by this job market when you can have a bitter, days-long argument about PowerPoint of all things (especially since the relevant job ad was only a single one-year VAP).
If the PowerPoint Civil War is winding down, we could squabble over the second part of the sentence: "Blackboard (or another electronic course management system)". Surely there's a pie fight in there as well.
I think that not recognizing that it takes about 30 minutes to figure out the main features of Powerpoint is a sign that you're maybe a little bit of a backward classicist.
Look, fool, I never said I don't know how to use PowerPoint. (Where did I say, or imply, that?)
1). Be nice. Why is everybody so quick to fly off the handle? 2). Where did I say or imply that you didn't know how to use it? The implication of my sentence was that your making a big deal out of a school's request for that capability suggests that you regard learning Powerpoint as a major undertaking, which I would consider a sign that you're a bit of a backward classicist.
I sure hope you're an archaeologist, since your reading skills seem to suck. Perhaps they've atrophied, after having been exposed to too many 10-words-per-screen lectures.
1). Again, be nice. 2). Thank you for imputing to me a position I never took in the very same comment in which you were critiquing my reading comprehension skills. I love things like that, and this one was particularly good.
PS if you can only get ten words on a slide, you may want to try making your font smaller. They'll still be able to read it.
Reason #653 why I'm glad I'm skipping Philly this year. Add to that Reason #432 why I'm not going back on the market if I'm denied tenure. Wish I could share my extra-strength Xanax with all of you. Please try to salvage some sort of happy holiday cheer before you head into the arena in January. I mean this with all sincerity. Best wishes to all of you.
PFO letters are so 2005. You'll be lucky if you hear anything from most places. You'll read about interviews being offered, fly-outs scheduled, and then see the winners' names in the APA newsletter. That's it. No crayons. No nail polish on mirrors. Sigh.
Well, I’m sorry. It’s just too late. I’m moving to Phoenix. I got a job. Something you apply for, and then they pay you to, uh... never mind. I don’t want to ruin the surprise.
I think that not recognizing that it takes about 30 minutes to figure out the main features of Powerpoint is a sign that you're maybe a little bit of a backward classicist.
Look, fool, I never said I don't know how to use PowerPoint. (Where did I say, or imply, that?)
1). Be nice. Why is everybody so quick to fly off the handle? 2). Where did I say or imply that you didn't know how to use it? The implication of my sentence was that your making a big deal out of a school's request for that capability suggests that you regard learning Powerpoint as a major undertaking, which I would consider a sign that you're a bit of a backward classicist.
I sure hope you're an archaeologist, since your reading skills seem to suck. Perhaps they've atrophied, after having been exposed to too many 10-words-per-screen lectures.
1). Again, be nice. 2). Thank you for imputing to me a position I never took in the very same comment in which you were critiquing my reading comprehension skills. I love things like that, and this one was particularly good.
PS if you can only get ten words on a slide, you may want to try making your font smaller. They'll still be able to read it.
I found your response entertaining enough that I'll let you get the last word -- not because I couldn't continue this discussion, but because I can't imagine anyone cares. (If you're interested in what I might have said, though, it would have revolved around your interpretation of your own words being the lectio difficilior when viewed in the context of the overall discussion. And if I were trying to be clever I might have said something about how too much writing for PowerPoint had atrophied your ability to use all the words necessary in order to make a point clearly and unambiguously. Too bad we'll never know just what my response would have been...)
Too bad there haven't been any ads seeking "a well-rounded Classicist possessing a thorough knowledge of American TV 1997-2006, preferably with a specialization in Joss Whedon studies."
"Too bad there haven't been any ads seeking 'a well-rounded Classicist possessing a thorough knowledge of American TV 1997-2006, preferably with a specialization in Joss Whedon studies.'"
On a different note, what's up with Howard? I thought they were being shut down and now they're hiring a tenured prof to teach Greek and Latin? Is classics at Howard dead, or isn't it?
and which Giles are we talking about? Later hotter giles with the better glasses, or early S1-3 giles who was constantly befuddled? It makes a difference.
Right, sorry, I should have mentioned that. Here's a little-known tip for making a big splash at the campus visit: make sure that in every conversation you have with anyone you spend at least a minute fuming about how unfair it was that Firefly got cancelled. Once they compare notes after you've left, your visit is really going to stand out in their minds.
Incest Sympathizer said... I just hope Michael Cera finally gets to bang his cousin.
Damn! I knew there was something that was both creepy and not at all clever I wanted to say, but I was having trouble coming up with the right words. Then I saw you'd beat me to it!
If you're an Arrested Development fan, I suggest you spend every campus visit (not to mention the APA) walking around saying, "But you don't have a job. You have a job offer. Anyone can get a job offer." That'll go over great!
Sorry, Tate. I never even got mine in to them. I left it to the last minute, and then their website was down around the time it was due. Felt like I couldn't write a decent cover letter without knowing a single damn thing about the dept., so I just chucked it. Eheu! Question, though, for people who got interviews: do you have some kind of Ed. degree in addition to your Classics Ph.d.? Just curious what kind of qualifications they may have wanted for someone to teach courses on pedagogy.
About Stanford: it's way out of your league. Mine too. So forget about it.
And Georgia is a very peculiar job: they want someone junior who can direct the elementary Latin program. How many new Ph.D.'s have experience directing a Latin program, not just TAing or partaking of a curriculum that was created for them by someone else? No doubt very few, and most likely only those happy few who have taught high school, a foreign country on this blog.
So I say this someone who has experienced almost everything the market has to offer, including total rejection: buck up! It's far too early to despair. Get back to me in May.
What does it take to be in Stanford's "league"? I thought I had a perfectly fine application to them, and yet somehow knew all along that I would not get the interview.
It will probably be clearer when the rest of us find out who got the job. But let's be honest: it's one of the top two or three classics departments in the country, at one of the most selective and desirable universities in the world. And they have palm trees there! You know how classicists love palm trees. They will hire the very best candidate in the pool. I'm just talking out of my ass here, but I imagine that person will have degrees from Oxbridge, Harvard, Princeton, Berkeley vel sim., (with honors), various awards, several articles published in prestigious journals, probably on something trendy like Aulus Gellius, Pliny the Elder or Statius, and be very good looking. If that describes you, I'm sorry; I have no idea why you didn't get an interview.
Is anybody who received an interview request from Georgia willing to say if they taught high school and/or have some formal education (as in ed degree) background? I have both of those criteria, as well as a Ph.D. from a top program. Lots of teaching experience. I'm decent looking, and I love R.E.M. No interview for me. What gives?
So, if I am pretty good looking, have a publication record that is quite good, a job already, but have a crappy PhD pedigree (not top ten), does that mean I won't be getting any love from Brown?
I can only speak for myself and my SC (not Brown), but we look almost entirely at writing sample, overall research profile, CV (pubs relative to time out, teaching range), and fit. School doesn't really come into it, except (and this is a very small except) inasmuch as a prof at Stanford, Berkeley, etc. who says "best student in 40 years" in a rec might carry more weight than someone at a lesser known school who says something comparable. Then again, the vast majority of recs don't matter much to me one way or the other: they help if they communicate in some compelling way that you're both a great scholar and a great person, someone we'd actively want to be around (rare that they do this, I suspect not because you're not all great but because profs don't think to/aren't able to write powerfully in such ways), or if someone super famous says "best/one of two top in 30 years" (also very rare, for obvious reasons); and they hurt if they're notably tepid (again, and thankfully, rare). Otherwise, they're mostly just a check mark. But again, take this with a huge grain of salt, since it's just one voice from just one school -- and not the one you're asking about.
No head shot...I didn't want to be the object of private, sticky messy love.
In all seriousness, and I know debates in former years have addressed this, but is there any hope for the "lesser breeds" of PhD in the application process at the Browns, Princetons, (or even the Tennessees and Wisconsins)?
Not on an SC, so this is just my opinion as a seasoned observer, but yes, your chances at any R-1 school with a grad program are poor unless you have an elite pedigree. I'm sure most SCs take a fair and balanced look at all the dossiers, but research-oriented places are looking ideally for a long record of achievement: that you went to an elite school as an undergrad, got into a selective grad program, won awards, published in prestigious journals etc. Obviously, you can make up ground by actually being a good scholar and proving by publishing important/interesting research, but you are competing against others who have checked off every box on that list. SLACs are a totally different ball game and I think with a few exceptions, experience matters more than pedigree.
I doubt that Brown will take a chance on someone who doesn't look good on paper. If they don't find exactly what they want (or think they want), they'll just cancel the search.
The rest is fine, but I strongly disagree with this. Although where you went to grad school counts for a lot, nobody gives a rat's ass where you were an undergraduate.
Oh, no, the lament about elite schools again! Remember last year someone claimed that you couldn't get a job if you didn't go to one of the top x places, when in fact people the year before had gotten jobs from about the top 3x places? Sure, in this as in any field, it helps to go to a place that trains you well, and a place that is known for training you well, and ideally a place that both trains you well and is known for training you well. But different SCs will have different ideas about which of the "top" places train you well, and which of the "up and coming" places might actually train you better.
Wow, the person who said letters hardly matter has had a very different experience on SCs from mine. Letters can do a lot: can testify that they have observed you teaching well, can claim that you know Greek, Latin or whatever well, can explain your research and why it's important. SCs also have to know how to read letters from different countries, from people who are famous for saying everyone is brilliant or conversely for being stingy with praise, from people who are or are not to be trusted when they say you will finish on time, etc. We always read letters with great care and discuss key points at meetings. (my word verification is a gerund in the genitive)
Hey Stanford, ok, you rejected me. I'm over it. But it was bad enough you asked me to fill out your freaking survey after you already rejected me. But to continue sending me emails? FO already. And I'm less likely to fill out your survey when your message is less than polite (caps = shouting, I don't respond well to shouting).
In general letters of recommendation bear so little resemblance to reality that I have stopped taking them seriously.
And if a recommender is needed to explain an applicant's research and why it's important, that means that the applicant hasn't been able to do so, which is not exactly a good sign.
I think the x2, x3 stuff is useful when it comes to interview requests and campus visits invitations, since theoretically it gives you an idea of how many people are being interviewed; why people add it to other things, I have no idea.
7:58, last year a school asked me for additional materials in the middle of December, and notified me regarding the interview a few days before Christmas.
I've just realized that at the convention it's basically like the hotel has been overrun by hordes of zombies, except that they want "jaaaaahhhb" instead of "braaaaaaains."
Plus there's the aimless shuffling, the terrible wardrobe, and the poor hygiene.
Feeling left out? Don't have an interview lined up in Philly? Wondering why you reserved a hotel room and booked a flight? Just annoyed at the world in general?
Fret no more!! Anybody who wants an interview, have I got a deal for you!
Meet me at Woody's Bar on Friday night of the APA. I'll be wearing a Glee t-shirt and purple cords. We can talk. You can lie to me about how much you want to teach Myth. I'll lie to you about the size of my enrollments. You can try to suss out the details of my interest, and I can watch the clock a bit too carefully. After your 30 minutes are up you can order as many martinis as you want, so long as you are no longer sitting in my booth. We can share awkward glances at the USC party later that night (or early Saturday morning, you know those USC folks.....), and maybe one of us will get lucky.
I can then ignore you when I see you waiting in line for the airport shuttle on Sunday. It'll be swell.
I just got the most "hilarious" rejection letter from Georgetown... apparently I did not match the job criteria "as articulated in their job description" and therefore they "focused on candidates whose accomplishments and expressed interests for the future would best meet their particular needs in classical Latin literature and language". Now, is there anything more vague than some unspecified particular needs (very unspecified yet particular indeed, both in the rejection letter and in the job description). Georgetown give me a break!
But Georgetown's PFO was rather obnoxious. They chose the best candidates. Why not just say so, instead of saying "The pool of candidates was excellent, and in evaluating candidates we closely followed the criteria articulated in our job description and thus focused on candidates whose accomplishments and expressed interests for the future would best meet our particular needs in classical Latin literature and language"?
I can't believe some of you are whining about the standard wording (polite) in rejection letters. God, you would complain if Dr. Sens told you what you asked for. I mean even when the poor guy responds on Famae (kudos to him by the way), you question him. Ugh.
Can you guys please think before you write at least once (I am sure you'll state how I am a hater or something to that effect... pathetic).
The poster at 9:14 has misleadingly appropriated my name in his or her comment. I'm sorry if the rejection letter we sent out caused upset, but impersonating my identity online is a violation of every standard of professional ethics, of basic decency, and, I would presume, of the expectations of this blog.
Mad Props to Gtown Alex Sens for showing up to say hello and straighten the record. Seriously!
I should have put a smiley at the end of my joking reply to flag it properly. No offense meant to Gtown AS, and only teasing to the complainant. I'll shuffle back to my banal, anonymous existence in the intertubes now.
My fear is that there are jobs being posted and the always stellar and on top of the job placement service has taken a rather long Thanksgiving holidy.
Hey, they just posted two "new" jobs on the new APA website! One is the Miami job (which showed up on Famae first). The other? T-T at Wisconsin, deadline Nov. 15.
Dear Placement Service - Just give up. You've made a noble effort, but posting information on a website in a timely fashion is clearly beyond your capabilities. Let the professionals here in Famae and Wiki-land take care of it for you.
For those of you sad about the Stanford job, their top priority is finding someone who complements the current faculty. Take note - not compliments as kissing ass, but complements current faculty strengths. So you could be super awesome, but your work and teaching might be too close to their current archaeology faculty for you to be the right person for the job. And their current faculty aren't planning on going anywhere soon. And you have to be someone who gets along with the anthropologists in the Archaeology Center, and with the anthropologists in the Center already at odds with one another, Classics has to be very careful whom they hire. So I know that doesn't help you get the job, but since I happen to have some insight into this particular search, I wanted to share it so you know that it could be for any or all of these reasons, rather than that you didn't have a fancy pedigree or weren't shiny enough.
I am outraged, outraged! that Georgetown did not send me a trophy for trying, or at least a certificate affirming my smart and specialness. You can bet they'll be hearing from my mother!
Seriously, though, is it permitted to clean up the Wiki (cheers and jeers), which is currently cluttered with somebody's issues? (Even though I do love the idea of a person being affronted by a "meaningless" rejection letter.)
Okay, so here's a gripe that will put those people whining about their rejection letters to shame. I've kept this bottled in for some time now, but can no longer remain silent: the Placement Service has got to learn that when providing a postal address it is proper style to have two spaces between the state abbreviation and the zip code. Every damn time I send out an application I have to waste my time inserting an extra into the address that I've copied from the website or e-mail. Don't we pay enough for the Placement Service to expect that to be done for us?!?
Anonymous said... I now hate weekends. Seriously, no more information on interviews until Monday at the earliest? That's like a thousand years away. December 3, 2011 9:58 AM
Don't worry - once you've gone through the hell of the job market 4 or 5 times, you'll feel so much better about how slow this process is in this field.
"The MIT shows great class and kindness in treating the candidates as persons rather than numbers. Other institutions please read, observe and LEARN!"
While I also appreciate MIT's behavior in this search, there are a number of schools that have been more considerate than normal (at least compared to last year) this time around. I really appreciate that some so far have sent out rejection letters quickly as opposed to having them filter in sometime in the summer.
Also, when schools are getting hundreds of applications in, I don't expect to be treated as anything but a number unless I make it to the late stages of the game. It's enough for me that a place like Georgetown sent out a nice enough PFO letter promptly; it's ridiculous and naive to expect them to send me a rejection letter detailing exactly in what areas I personally didn't measure up.
Yeah, I don't understand the huff about the wording of rejection letters. Who even takes the time to read those? I see that "unfortunately" vel sim. in the first or second sentence and move on to the next e-mail. There's no good way to say PFO.
Since folks understandably appreciate being notified promptly of their status one way or the other, I'll take the time here to apologize on behalf of MIT for the fact that we apparently *won't* be sending out any official rejections until after an offer has been formally accepted. I was told when I asked back in November that this is Institute rather than department policy. I'll ask again when we meet on Friday to hash out interviewees, but anticipate that it'll be the same response: no dice. Just an FYI.
Just confirming what MIT said about the timing of rejection letters being governed by institutional policy -- I was on a SC committee last year at my SLAC, and the Dean informed us that we absolutely COULD NOT send out any rejection letters until an offer had been made and accepted (i.e., until March). We protested; we pointed out that this was both cruel and deeply disrespectful to the applicants who hadn't made our APA interview list, since there was really no likelihood that we'd ever go back and interview anyone whom we hadn't talked to at the APA (for one thing, the Dean would just declare a failed search if we tried to say "We want to bring someone to campus whom we didn't interview at the APA"). But -- the Dean was adamant. No rejection letters until the job had been formally accepted. Institutional policy.
I think this is not at all uncommon. Many of us on SCs really are not sadists or demons, and we do remember the agony of being on a desperately overcrowded job market. But in many cases, we are expressly forbidden to tell you, before the APA, that you're not going to get an APA interview. I'm sorry.
Anonymous said... I now hate weekends. Seriously, no more information on interviews until Monday at the earliest? That's like a thousand years away. December 3, 2011 9:58 AM
I just heard back from a school about an interview on a Sunday night. Now we can fret every day of the week.
Pardon me while I put on my tin foil hat, but I'm wondering if anybody has ever heard the one about certain departments specifically never interviewing anyone who initially responded to the ads, because they're too "needy" or "desperate" or whatever? They just wait till the applications have come in and then start contacting people who didn't apply? It sounds nuts, but I've heard it from two different people now, neither of them known for making things up. And with all the other things places do, maybe it's not so far-fetched.
Anon 9.57 -- I suppose anything is *possible*, but I can only tell that at this institution, at least, there would be no possibility of doing a search among people who did not apply. The dossiers of the short list we want to bring to campus have to be read and approved by a whole phalanx of sub-deans before the Dean will "certify" the list and authorize the funding to fly them in; once we've made our pick, our choice has to be approved by sub-deans again, Dean, and President before an offer can be made; once an offer has been made (by the President), the Board of Trustees has to sign off on it. At each stage of that process, out comes the stack of dossiers again. And one thing that these administration types DO look at is date on letter of application and secretary's date stamp certifying that letter of application got there before deadline. (We also have to write up a detailed justification of why we, the SC, want to hire Candidate A instead of Candidate B or C.)
Believe me, there's no way we could say to the Dean "Oh, we just decided to bag the application process and call some people we've heard would be good hires." The search would be shut down so quickly your head would spin.
It wouldn't even be possible to do that unless you're talking about jobs not at entry level. Obviously people who don't have a TT job yet are applying to every job that fits them.
1,406 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 1406 Newer› Newest»Good point -- just saw that one and new one from Howard. But this is my other complaint -- why, in an age of iPhones, do I have to log on to check the list? Why can't it be an RSS feed vel sim., where listings show up on my device as they're finalized? I know it will never happen, because they want to charge for access. But that doesn't prevent me from being bitter about it. Cue senseless emoticon ----> ;-[
And now, oddly, they've sent out the e-mail but omitted the jobs at Rollins and Howard.
Weren't Rollins and Howard getting shut down? Now they're hiring?
I don't know anything about the Howard department's status, but people should be warned that the school itself seems to be a pretty wretched place. I know a senior professor there -- through a non-classics friend -- and over the years he has told me the most horrifying things involving administrative incompetence, corruption, and lots of other problems. Stuff that would have made the front page of the Washington Post if it had leaked, and some stuff that should have ended up in court. (Yes, since you're thinking it, some problems are those found elsewhere, but Howard seems an especially messed up place.)
So should someone here have a choice between the Howard job and another it might be good to keep this in mind.
Howard is looking for someone senior (tenured) anyway, so I doubt it's relevant for most of those who read FV.
I think it's clear that senior people read FV.
Hence the "most of".
Someone think of something we can bitch about. I'm bored over here.
Should we occupy the APA? Pros and Cons.
Should we be a$$holes? Pros and cons?
See the debate on the Occupy MLA. Or consider the lack of coherence in the aims of Occupy Wall Street.
Perhaps, but only if as performance art.
The audiences of the APA have no power to change our fates.
Here's a fama: UW Madison is no longer looking for a Hellenist but in fact is looking for a Roman epic person? Can anyone confirm? I have this news from two different sources now, but I would have thought that Madison would have emended their ad if this were the case. Let speculation commence?
How reliable are your sources? People at madison? People who know people at madison? And, if the rumor is true, what does it say about their department?
No, Madison SC! Change what you are looking for to my specialty. I really want that job!
I have heard the Wisconsin rumor. It has come around attached to a "good source." Which means there's a substantial likelihood that it's total bullshit. But who knows? Maybe it's true. Can you afford to take a chance on its truth or falsehood? So I guess they're getting a lot of applications they're not interested in. Sympathies to them if the rumor's not their doing. If it is, well ... they asked for it.
Personally, I suspect the rumor was spread by postal workers worried about the ongoing collapse in volume of mail.
The wiki indicates that folks have received acknowledgements of materials received from Oberlin, Colgate, and Cincinnati - I haven't heard back from *any* of those places, though, and got my applications in well before the deadlines. To set my mind at ease - there are others who have applied who haven't heard about receipt of application yet, right? Right?
Well, there was an automated email from Academic Jobs from Colgate, but I have not heard from Oberlin at all.
Nonetheless ... relax! I'm sure they have your application and if it's good enough, they'll find you. Until then it's probably best not to think about it.
Haven't heard back from Oberlin, either, and I also had my application in early. No worries. As Silenus said, I'm sure they'll let us know if something's incomplete.
Anonymous 4:27 PMsaid...
"Here's a fama: UW Madison is no longer looking for a Hellenist but in fact is looking for a Roman epic person? Can anyone confirm?"
As written the ad says "Expertise in Homer and archaic Greek epic *****preferred****" This is not wrong and has not changed. I've heard they might be willing to consider Roman epic, but this is certainly not a preference.
A shift from "might be willing to consider" to "are now looking for" seems like exactly the sort of violence that fama does.
So, here's a complaint in the form of a question. Why have only 33 people admitted to the Classics Wiki that they are using it? I think we can all agree that we'd prefer if only 32 other people were on the market this year, but let's get real. What gives?
What to make of the Montreal job? The ad says both 1) proficiency in French is required (it's the language of instruction, after all) and 2) that the university "provides support for newly recruited faculty to attain proficiency in French". I'd work my ass off to get my spoken French up to par for this job, but I doubt anyone would understand me in those classes I'd teach in the first few semesters. Any point in applying?
"So, here's a complaint in the form of a question. Why have only 33 people admitted to the Classics Wiki that they are using it? I think we can all agree that we'd prefer if only 32 other people were on the market this year, but let's get real. What gives?"
Some people look at the wiki, but will never add to it. Just the way it is, I'm afraid. Also, some people actually don't look at the wiki. I know, sounds crazy. But (almost) certainly true.
"2) that the university "provides support for newly recruited faculty to attain proficiency in French". I'd work my ass off to get my spoken French up to par for this job, but I doubt anyone would understand me in those classes I'd teach in the first few semesters. Any point in applying?"
You've answered your own question.
"You've answered your own question."
Great! What was my answer?
I think that the point was that the promise of support for people looking to improve their French was itself proof that it wasn't inconceivable that someone not currently proficient in French could get the job. And that seems right.
What I'm totally ignorant of is what the disfavored nationalities are in Quebec. I know that the one thing you don't want to be for jobs in Canada more generally is a U.S. citizen (Commonwealth seems fine, though). But specifically in Quebec is it U.S. citizens, English Canadians, and Commonwealth citizens who are anathema? Or just English Canadians? Or just U.S. citizens? Or are U.S. citizens OK because English Canadians hate them? Or just to be safe does one only hire people from Quebec and France?
I am suddenly alarmed and disturbed to realize, now for the first time, that there are eight million people living to the north of me, in Quebec, and I don't know whether they hate me or not. That's a lot of people, pretty close by, not to know that about. I assume they will attack Ontario first, though, so I guess that will give me time to run.
I know that the one thing you don't want to be for jobs in Canada more generally is a U.S. citizen (Commonwealth seems fine, though).
This is not exactly. There used to be government rules that stipulated that jobs had to be offered to Canadians first, but those rules have been eased considerably. U.S. citizens are just as eligible for these jobs (even though the language of some ads makes you think otherwise).
*not exactly true, that is.
Montreal alum here. When I did my undergrad there I was taught by four professors who were not Canadians (not when they were hired anyway), two of them Americans. One was definitely going through some intensive French training, and we all thought his accent was quite charming.
As far as I know, the UdM tends to cast its net pretty wide when running a search, and that's why this job has been advertized on the APA and on European lists. The problem for an American applicant is that you would be competing with Europeans, and god knows the academic market is even crappier over there. Those applicants might not be perceived as flight risks and you might. I'd say that's something to address in an interview. On the flip side, French academia has lost a lot of its prestige in Quebec over the last generation, and Classics/Ancient History majors are now encouraged to go to American grad schools instead (well I was, and four others I can think of). This could help you.
If you are genuinely interested in the job, you should apply!
Re: Madison job
Sometimes in this crazy world faculty members with boundary issues develop their own visions for the future and tell their grad students and former grad students their visions as though they were inside scoops. These "scoops" get repeated and eventually end up on message boards.
But that doesn't make them true.
"Great! What was my answer?"
First: ha!
Second: If you don't think you could attain proficiency even with their crash course, then your French just isn't good enough for this job. They are giving some latitude here, and are basically saying that they will meet applicants halfway by considering people who have only decent French. But, how could they possibly hire someone who, by his/her own admission, could not actually teach courses at the university? That's what I meant when I said you had answered your own question.
Under the Stanford Arch job someone has written "Invitation requested by eMail 11/18/11." I suppose this is a garbled version of "interview requested"?
Seems like. I imagine it was an "invitation" to be interviewed that was extended via email. Or maybe the poster meant Evite. That would be great, if all of this were conducted via Evite.
I still don't know the answer to the question, "does Quebec hate the rest of Canada more than it hates the U.S., less, or both equally?" I tried Googling "whom do French Canadians hate," with disappointing results.
So there's no abstract book (nor any electronic equivalent) for the APA Placement Service this year, correct?
So there's no abstract book (nor any electronic equivalent) for the APA Placement Service this year, correct?
There has never been an abstract book for the placement service. They are however drawing up plans to put out an abstract expressionist book next year. Pollocks, De Koonings, etc. Nothing to do with finding a job, but it'll be something to look at while you're hanging around in the hallway.
Seriously, though, do you mean the CV book? I think they stopped doing that a year or two ago. If you really do mean abstracts, though, I believe that they still do the old paper abstract book for the panels, and post the abstracts online as well. Never had anything to do with the placement service, though.
Urgh. Yes, I meant the CV book. I have no idea what kind of crazy was going on in my head when I wrote abstract.
Re the UW-Madison job. The search committee sent out emails to department chairs letting them know that they are widening their search to consider candidates with other specialties (such as Latin epic) although they are still primarily interested in Homerists (no doubt since Barry Powell is retired).
"It's nothing against you personally, Homerists. I mean, you're great! It's just that we've realized Latinists are smarter, better looking, better smelling and nicer to old ladies; oh, and your applications were on the whole pretty disappointing. I hope we can still be friends."
Ouch, Madison!
Would it be good if there were still a c.v. book--but an online one? I always thought it was useful through them both to see what's out there and to see what people put on their cv's, and it what format.
Ah, I see you are still laboring under the misunderstanding that the Placement Service would ever go out of its way to do something helpful for the job seekers who pay to use it.
The CV book was always intended to help people get last-minute interviews at the conference (although I'm not sure that even that had happened much in the past decades). It had nothing to do with letting anxious candidates take a little peek at other candidates' lists of publications to see whose was bigger.
And if you need models for CV format, the Internet is already home to tons of easily accessible CVs. You could even put yours there and link to it in a comment, if you liked. Or someone could volunteer to receive them by e-mail and post them to google docs.
I see that the Placement Service has joined my students in starting Thanksgiving vacation early. Does there remain a pretense that the list of positions will be up to date before the annual meeting? Given that people pay for this service, one would expect a bit less shameless incompetence. That's monopoly for you.
Anybody up for starting a competing placement service?
Anon 7:16, I assume you are a job-seeker. I think the only way the APA will actually listen is if departments (who are really paying through the nose for this "service") kick up a stink about the fact that their jobs are not being posted in a timely fashion, and are now listed in a jumbled and illogical manner on the website.
It would take quite a stink, I think, since we have all known for years that the Placement Service is embarrassingly unorganized. Other disciplines with far larger numbers of material to deal with are way ahead of us on this one. This suggests that the virtual necessity of monopoly isn't solely responsible for the sorry state of the APA/AIA Placement Service. It must contribute, though. Unless enough people with enough clout complain loudly and frequently enough, it won't change because the APA has no bottom-line incentive to make it change. Departments and candidates pay no matter what happens, because they don't have any other options. Perhaps the reason why there isn't enough complaining is that no single department has to put up with the nonsense often enough; or perhaps they simply don't feel it as much on their end.
In any case, I count only five positions posted on the APA site that are not now listed on the Placement Service site: Central Michigan, University of Johannesburg, the University of Minnesota position for a chair in New Testament and Early Christian Studies (i.e., not the papyrology job), the TLL, and the Princeton Society of Fellows. Perhaps I've missed a few in either direction. Not that it matters much at this point; I can't see that it has had any real effect on anybody's job search. It's just annoying.
Do these job ads that say things like "must know how to use PowerPoint" really want us to confirm this in the cover letter? Who on earth doesn't know how to use PowerPoint?
If a classics program actually decides to put in an ad that a candidate needs to know powerpoint, it might be a good indicator of the department's mindset, and so yes, you probably want to give them what they asked for. That said, plenty of great classics teachers never touch powerpoint, wouldn't know the first thing about it, and would probably drive crazy the powerpoint-happy who actually mention it in a job ad...and vice versa.
I don't actually use PowerPoint, but the point is that I am alive in the 21st century and therefore most certainly know how to use it.
What type of classics job requires PowerPoint? That's just bizarre unless it's some jack-off-all-trades civ position in some giant humanities department.
Anonymous said...
What type of classics job requires PowerPoint? That's just bizarre unless it's some jack-off-all-trades civ position in some giant humanities department.
surely you jest? or are you really that disconnected? yikes.
jack-off-all-trades
All of them?
Anonymous said...
What type of classics job requires PowerPoint? That's just bizarre unless it's some jack-off-all-trades civ position in some giant humanities department.
Let us all agree that the above statement was a joke.
As for those who are unable (not unaccustomed, but actually unable) to use Powerpoint or other presentation software, I'd be very surprised if there are more than a handful of recent PhDs who fall into this category. But there is, apparently, at least one department out there that has met people on the market who are incapable of using this software, and committee members at that department are very afraid of meeting any more such people. Apparently.
Candidates must be able to do Powerpoint in French.
"All of them?"
Well obviously those of us who could make money as sex workers are doing that, not applying to Classics jobs.
But there is, apparently, at least one department out there that has met people on the market who are incapable of using this software, and committee members at that department are very afraid of meeting any more such people. Apparently.
There are older faculty who fear and do not themselves use Powerpoint and are impressed by people who know how to use it. No doubt they imagine that this is a special skill that only some candidates will have.
That said, knowing how to use ppt well actually is a special skill that only some candidates will have.
Actually, I'd bet a statistically reliable survey of classics departments, or of recent classics students, would reveal powerpoint is a minority past time. It's hardly weird not to care one bit about it or for it.
Anonymous said...
Actually, I'd bet a statistically reliable survey of classics departments, or of recent classics students, would reveal powerpoint is a minority past time. It's hardly weird not to care one bit about it or for it.
did RP post this? jeez, people. go back to your caves.
powerpoint is a minority past time
As is writing English, apparently. Jesus.
Jesus was a Jew, and therefore probably used PowerPoint.
Yes. It's a little-known fact that Moses actually first tried to communicate the Ten Commandments to the Israelites as bullet points in a neat and professional-looking Powerpoint presentation, but God made him do it over with stone tablets.
Yeah, God is kind of a dick.
Only an idiot would hire or not hire someone based on whether he/she can use PowerPoint. A lot of us got through college just fine without our professors having such a tool, so why this would all of a sudden become a *requirement* is beyond me. Plenty of people can use PowerPoint but still suck as lecturers, I'd wager...
it is completely reasonable for an employer to expect a prospective employee to be technologically relevant. keep in mind that distance education is a top priority in many university systems. asking for basic skills from academics is appropriate to say the least. pontificating from the mount is really not enough - and that it was sufficient for so long is part of what ails the humanities.
Our undergrads, at least, would disagree with you. In eval after eval, the majority message is clear: they want good (emphasis on good) lecturers, and technology is just not a priority. In my experience, it's more of a priority for certain faculty and admins than anyone else. And, in my experience, the ones who don't use it don't criticize colleagues who do nearly as often as the technocrats criticize those who don't play with their toys.
Our undergrads, at least, would disagree with you. In eval after eval, the majority message is clear: they want good (emphasis on good) lecturers, and technology is just not a priority. In my experience, it's more of a priority for certain faculty and admins than anyone else. And, in my experience, the ones who don't use it don't criticize colleagues who do nearly as often as the technocrats criticize those who don't play with their toys.
You miss the point. Being technologically relevant does not make one a poor lecturer, nor can technology replace good lecturing. But if you think that it is not important to be able to engage instructional technology in designing and offering undergraduate courses in humanities, then I find your POV unfortunate. Today's instructor needs a range of skills - and capable deployment of technology in classroom settings is one of them. This includes Powerpoint, various bibliographic resources, ability to direct students to use DYABOLA, JSTOR, ARTSTOR, L'AnnΓ©e philologique, and others. The digital humanities are increasingly important for pan-Mediterranean ancient studies, so I do not see the problem of asking potential employees to be on board with the most basic of technologies to use in the classroom. If you have undergraduates who don't demand instant access to everything - readings, texts, images, notes, etc. - you are either a) lucky or b) your place of employ is much different than most universities and colleges this commenter knows by experience.
I think it's ludicrous that so many schools demand that candidates be proficient in the use of chalkboards. I have never used a chalkboard and never felt like I needed to. As long as I am really clear in speaking, there is no need for me to write things on a surface that the whole class can see. Besides, I bet there are lots of people who do use chalkboards who aren't very good lecturers, which proves that chalkboards are useless and maybe even harmful.
So stop trying to ram your chalkboards down our throats, you chalkboard fascists.
And, in my experience, the ones who don't use it don't criticize colleagues who do nearly as often as the technocrats criticize those who don't play with their toys.
likely because they are too out to lunch to notice. yipes. the thoughts expressed by the anti-technology posters here are frightful. backward much, Classicists? keep working hard to help confirm the stereotypes held by your critics.
LOL, 12:52! That's it in a nutshell. Next topic!
Those who've posted pro-PowerPoint in the past 24 hrs. seem not to realize that they're mixing apples and oranges. What does telling students about JSTOR and other research databases have to do with whether PowerPoint is a necessary lecture tool?!? (I'll agree that a professor who can't tell his/her students how to go about researching a paper is incompetent.) And as for long-distance teaching, here admittedly I might be wrong, but I doubt that PowerPoint is essential to that. Isn't it rather vidcams and Blackboard or a similar program that's used? Why is PowerPoint essential to that?
And there are LOTS of people who think that PowerPoint is part of the dumbing down of our culture, and can be a deceptively poor way of conveying information. Heck, just go here and read about how it helped cause the second shuttle disaster: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/14/magazine/14POWER.html ! Or go here to learn why some military leaders think it causes trouble: http://blogs.computerworld.com/16006/powerpoint_makes_you_stupid (Yes, these are obviously far more technical fields than ours, but the point holds that PowerPoint is imperfect for conveying information, and in the case of students too many turn off their brains and think they must only know what's in the PowerPoint presentation, instead of thinking.
The bottom line is that if some people wish to use PowerPoint that's fine, but any administrator or professor who expects it of job candidates is an absolute moron who doesn't value diverse teaching approaches, and doesn't truly understand the technology.
And my thinking this has nothing to do with my being a backward classicist -- it has to do with my being open-minded, and recognizing that just because something can be done via technology doesn't mean it must be.
12:52PM: Do you actually know how to use a chalkboard? In my experience, most people under the age of 40 do not.
The chalkboard retains over PowerPoint the simple advantage of letting its user adapt to the occasion. Let's see you reorder your PowerPoint lecture in response to a student's question without fumbling around with your computer and losing the moment. If, that is, you still interact with students at all.
I am happy to admit that my attitude toward these things has everything to do with being a backward classicist. If I were interested in being fashionable, I would have chosen a different profession.
That said, anyone who can't learn how to put together a functional PowerPoint presentation probably shouldn't be employed in a university. Anyone who is proud of their ability to do this should feel ashamed. Be glad they aren't asking for anything hard, like a real knowledge of Greek.
I'm pretty sure the subtext of the rejection letter I just received was: "your application didn't include anything about powerpoint, and we're really committed to multimedia education, so we doubt that you would be a good fit." If only I'd listed my proficiency in powerpoint on my cv, right after the part where I bother to point out I not only have a PhD in Classics, but can also read Greek and Latin, maybe I would have been selected for an interview. Dammit!
how concerned should a novice applicant be if he/she did not get an EOE form via e-mail when everyone else seems to have? The application receipt was confirmed previously by the department. But naturally stress levels are high even for silly things like this. And yes, I've checked spam filters.
zero worried
there are LOTS of people who think that PowerPoint is part of the dumbing down of our culture, and can be a deceptively poor way of conveying information.
There are also LOTS of people who think that Elvis is still alive, that the moon landings were carried out on a sound stage on Earth, and that the president is foreign-born.
And my thinking this has nothing to do with my being a backward classicist -- it has to do with my being open-minded, and recognizing that just because something can be done via technology doesn't mean it must be.
I think that not recognizing that it takes about 30 minutes to figure out the main features of Powerpoint is a sign that you're maybe a little bit of a backward classicist.
Do you actually know how to use a chalkboard? In my experience, most people under the age of 40 do not.
Well, you’ve embarrassed yourself. One piece of chalk goes in each nostril, I drop a few more down my pants, then if there are any left over I use one to write illegibly on the chalkboard while I continue to lecture, facing the board the whole time. Then I turn back around and position myself so as to block as many students as possible from seeing what I've written.
The chalkboard retains over PowerPoint the simple advantage of letting its user adapt to the occasion. Let's see you reorder your PowerPoint lecture in response to a student's question without fumbling around with your computer and losing the moment.
Usually the chalkboards have not been removed from your classroom. And yes, if you are using a presentation in such a way that you can’t take questions or go off script, you may be using it poorly.
If, that is, you still interact with students at all.
You caught me. I don’t. I am a robot and I do not understand your human ways. Except sarcasm! I just had the new sarcasm software installed. Once I have the sorrow program, I will also be able to be sad that I can never be a human. And once I have the resentment program, you humans had better look out.
That said, anyone who can't learn how to put together a functional PowerPoint presentation probably shouldn't be employed in a university. Anyone who is proud of their ability to do this should feel ashamed. Be glad they aren't asking for anything hard, like a real knowledge of Greek.
But this I agree with! Except for the pissy tone in that little sneer about Greek. Also it was implicit in what you said just above that you didn’t know how to use Powerpoint in a lecture without “fumbling around with your computer and losing the moment” if you got questions, so I’m not sure you know “how to put together a functional PowerPoint presentation.” But maybe the presentation is functional but you’re not functional in the presence of the functional presentation? In that case there’s not really a contradiction there. Whatever the case, though, I mainly agree with this part, so we're friends now, no backsies.
I suspect there's a direct correlation between how big a deal search committees make of Powerpoint and how much your teaching will be micromanaged at such a place.
I think that not recognizing that it takes about 30 minutes to figure out the main features of Powerpoint is a sign that you're maybe a little bit of a backward classicist.
Look, fool, I never said I don't know how to use PowerPoint. (Where did I say, or imply, that?) Used it just recently, in fact. My point has always been that I have zero respect for any administrator or search committee who puts such an extraordinarily high premium on the program as to make it an important search criterion. And my secondary point is that PowerPoint is a rather flawed tool for conveying complicated issues.
I sure hope you're an archaeologist, since your reading skills seem to suck. Perhaps they've atrophied, after having been exposed to too many 10-words-per-screen lectures.
You know you're stressed to the breaking point by this job market when you can have a bitter, days-long argument about PowerPoint of all things (especially since the relevant job ad was only a single one-year VAP).
I wonder if anyone here really knows how to use powerpoint -- in the sense, that is, of being a certified powerpoint specialist.
See http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us/Exam.aspx?ID=77-883&Locale=en-us
Not that the department is questions appears actually to be asking for a powerpoint specialist. But, you know, they could.
If the PowerPoint Civil War is winding down, we could squabble over the second part of the sentence: "Blackboard (or another electronic course management system)". Surely there's a pie fight in there as well.
I think that not recognizing that it takes about 30 minutes to figure out the main features of Powerpoint is a sign that you're maybe a little bit of a backward classicist.
Look, fool, I never said I don't know how to use PowerPoint. (Where did I say, or imply, that?)
1). Be nice. Why is everybody so quick to fly off the handle? 2). Where did I say or imply that you didn't know how to use it? The implication of my sentence was that your making a big deal out of a school's request for that capability suggests that you regard learning Powerpoint as a major undertaking, which I would consider a sign that you're a bit of a backward classicist.
I sure hope you're an archaeologist, since your reading skills seem to suck. Perhaps they've atrophied, after having been exposed to too many 10-words-per-screen lectures.
1). Again, be nice. 2). Thank you for imputing to me a position I never took in the very same comment in which you were critiquing my reading comprehension skills. I love things like that, and this one was particularly good.
PS if you can only get ten words on a slide, you may want to try making your font smaller. They'll still be able to read it.
Reason #653 why I'm glad I'm skipping Philly this year. Add to that Reason #432 why I'm not going back on the market if I'm denied tenure. Wish I could share my extra-strength Xanax with all of you. Please try to salvage some sort of happy holiday cheer before you head into the arena in January. I mean this with all sincerity. Best wishes to all of you.
Well guys, we'll begin to find out our worth as human beings in the next few weeks!
"Is anyone else intimidated? 'Cause I'm just expecting thin slips of paper with the words 'No Way' written in crayon."
PFO letters are so 2005. You'll be lucky if you hear anything from most places. You'll read about interviews being offered, fly-outs scheduled, and then see the winners' names in the APA newsletter. That's it. No crayons. No nail polish on mirrors. Sigh.
Awesome Buffy reference, though!
"They're typing those now"
"All of this has happened before, and it will all happen again."
Take my love, take my land / Take me where I cannot stand / I don't care, I'm still free / You can't take the sky from me
"The hammer is my penis."
Where do we go from here?
When does the end appear?
When do the trumpets cheer?
Understand we'll go hand-in-hand. But we'll walk alone in fear. Where do we go from here? When does the end appear?
Well, I’m sorry. It’s just too late. I’m moving to Phoenix. I got a job. Something you apply for, and then they pay you to, uh... never mind. I don’t want to ruin the surprise.
I think that not recognizing that it takes about 30 minutes to figure out the main features of Powerpoint is a sign that you're maybe a little bit of a backward classicist.
Look, fool, I never said I don't know how to use PowerPoint. (Where did I say, or imply, that?)
1). Be nice. Why is everybody so quick to fly off the handle? 2). Where did I say or imply that you didn't know how to use it? The implication of my sentence was that your making a big deal out of a school's request for that capability suggests that you regard learning Powerpoint as a major undertaking, which I would consider a sign that you're a bit of a backward classicist.
I sure hope you're an archaeologist, since your reading skills seem to suck. Perhaps they've atrophied, after having been exposed to too many 10-words-per-screen lectures.
1). Again, be nice. 2). Thank you for imputing to me a position I never took in the very same comment in which you were critiquing my reading comprehension skills. I love things like that, and this one was particularly good.
PS if you can only get ten words on a slide, you may want to try making your font smaller. They'll still be able to read it.
I found your response entertaining enough that I'll let you get the last word -- not because I couldn't continue this discussion, but because I can't imagine anyone cares. (If you're interested in what I might have said, though, it would have revolved around your interpretation of your own words being the lectio difficilior when viewed in the context of the overall discussion. And if I were trying to be clever I might have said something about how too much writing for PowerPoint had atrophied your ability to use all the words necessary in order to make a point clearly and unambiguously. Too bad we'll never know just what my response would have been...)
Too bad there haven't been any ads seeking "a well-rounded Classicist possessing a thorough knowledge of American TV 1997-2006, preferably with a specialization in Joss Whedon studies."
Please, please don't respond to the guy trying to bring the PowerPoint fight back from the dead. Don't make me get out my stake.
Yay for Arrested Development, Nichael!
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
"Too bad there haven't been any ads seeking 'a well-rounded Classicist possessing a thorough knowledge of American TV 1997-2006, preferably with a specialization in Joss Whedon studies.'"
Oh hun, that is what the *campus* visits are for!
You guys made me have a sex dream about Xander, and I'm not even gay! I hope you're happy.
Season 1 Xander or the chunkier Xander Monophthalmos?
Eyepatch Xander, so everything was totally legal (except maybe some of the things we did with that eye-socket?).
On a different note, what's up with Howard? I thought they were being shut down and now they're hiring a tenured prof to teach Greek and Latin? Is classics at Howard dead, or isn't it?
Unsavory. Perhaps less so if you imagined yourself as some sort of praying mantis or Ashanti demon.
and which Giles are we talking about? Later hotter giles with the better glasses, or early S1-3 giles who was constantly befuddled? It makes a difference.
Which Giles? The answer to that is easy--doesn't everyone imagine him or herself as Rupert playing "be?hind Blue Eyes"?
"No one knows what it's like / To be the bad man / To be the sad man / Behind blue eyes / No one knows what it's like / To be hated..."
I myself prefer Ripper from Band Candy on the cop car.
I'm not sure the dream was that specific, but I'm probably closest to befuddled Giles in real life...
Oh hun, that is what the *campus* visits are for!
Right, sorry, I should have mentioned that. Here's a little-known tip for making a big splash at the campus visit: make sure that in every conversation you have with anyone you spend at least a minute fuming about how unfair it was that Firefly got cancelled. Once they compare notes after you've left, your visit is really going to stand out in their minds.
What if I'm an Arrested Development fan? Can I talk about how exciting the movie is with similar results?
Arrested Development the Movie? Rave about that and you certainly will not get the job.
I just hope Michael Cera finally gets to bang his cousin.
Incest Sympathizer said...
I just hope Michael Cera finally gets to bang his cousin.
Damn! I knew there was something that was both creepy and not at all clever I wanted to say, but I was having trouble coming up with the right words. Then I saw you'd beat me to it!
It's what I do!
"I just hope Michael Cera finally gets to bang his cousin."
Meh, have you seen her lately? That ship, my friend, has sailed.
If you're an Arrested Development fan, I suggest you spend every campus visit (not to mention the APA) walking around saying, "But you don't have a job. You have a job offer. Anyone can get a job offer." That'll go over great!
"Anonymous said...
"I just hope Michael Cera finally gets to bang his cousin."
Meh, have you seen her lately? That ship, my friend, has sailed.
November 30, 2011 1:38 AM"
Are you saying Alia iactanda est?
"Or maybe even a postmodern 'I, Claudius' joke, you know?"
Dear UGA,
WTF? We had something, you and me. Your rejection makes me feel hopeless and homeless and lost in the haze of the wine.
Broken in two,
Tate
Sorry, Tate. I never even got mine in to them. I left it to the last minute, and then their website was down around the time it was due. Felt like I couldn't write a decent cover letter without knowing a single damn thing about the dept., so I just chucked it. Eheu! Question, though, for people who got interviews: do you have some kind of Ed. degree in addition to your Classics Ph.d.? Just curious what kind of qualifications they may have wanted for someone to teach courses on pedagogy.
I too didn't get an interview with UGA. I'm joining your drinking party, Tate.
Ah, December. There will be blood.
Stanford, I have already begun to weep. Who else among you will add to my tears?!
Whelp, right here with you. Not that I ever thought I had a shot, but still....
About Stanford: it's way out of your league. Mine too. So forget about it.
And Georgia is a very peculiar job: they want someone junior who can direct the elementary Latin program. How many new Ph.D.'s have experience directing a Latin program, not just TAing or partaking of a curriculum that was created for them by someone else? No doubt very few, and most likely only those happy few who have taught high school, a foreign country on this blog.
So I say this someone who has experienced almost everything the market has to offer, including total rejection: buck up! It's far too early to despair. Get back to me in May.
What does it take to be in Stanford's "league"? I thought I had a perfectly fine application to them, and yet somehow knew all along that I would not get the interview.
It will probably be clearer when the rest of us find out who got the job. But let's be honest: it's one of the top two or three classics departments in the country, at one of the most selective and desirable universities in the world. And they have palm trees there! You know how classicists love palm trees. They will hire the very best candidate in the pool. I'm just talking out of my ass here, but I imagine that person will have degrees from Oxbridge, Harvard, Princeton, Berkeley vel sim., (with honors), various awards, several articles published in prestigious journals, probably on something trendy like Aulus Gellius, Pliny the Elder or Statius, and be very good looking. If that describes you, I'm sorry; I have no idea why you didn't get an interview.
Oh, I would say good pedigree, publications, and a kick-ass dissertation. What else?
On another note, where oh where are the new TT jobs? Is that it for this season?
Georgetown! You wound me to the quick!
I am trying desperately to avoid quoting "The Charge of the Light Brigade" with "rejections" substituted for "cannon".
Do I get points for praeteritio, O Wise SCs?
Is anybody who received an interview request from Georgia willing to say if they taught high school and/or have some formal education (as in ed degree) background? I have both of those criteria, as well as a Ph.D. from a top program. Lots of teaching experience. I'm decent looking, and I love R.E.M. No interview for me. What gives?
word verification: vates
So, if I am pretty good looking, have a publication record that is quite good, a job already, but have a crappy PhD pedigree (not top ten), does that mean I won't be getting any love from Brown?
Did you attach a headshot?
I can only speak for myself and my SC (not Brown), but we look almost entirely at writing sample, overall research profile, CV (pubs relative to time out, teaching range), and fit. School doesn't really come into it, except (and this is a very small except) inasmuch as a prof at Stanford, Berkeley, etc. who says "best student in 40 years" in a rec might carry more weight than someone at a lesser known school who says something comparable. Then again, the vast majority of recs don't matter much to me one way or the other: they help if they communicate in some compelling way that you're both a great scholar and a great person, someone we'd actively want to be around (rare that they do this, I suspect not because you're not all great but because profs don't think to/aren't able to write powerfully in such ways), or if someone super famous says "best/one of two top in 30 years" (also very rare, for obvious reasons); and they hurt if they're notably tepid (again, and thankfully, rare). Otherwise, they're mostly just a check mark. But again, take this with a huge grain of salt, since it's just one voice from just one school -- and not the one you're asking about.
No head shot...I didn't want to be the object of private, sticky messy love.
In all seriousness, and I know debates in former years have addressed this, but is there any hope for the "lesser breeds" of PhD in the application process at the Browns, Princetons, (or even the Tennessees and Wisconsins)?
Did I ruin my life?
"No head shot...I didn't want to be the object of private, sticky messy love."
If there is a chance of this happening from your head shot alone, you should probably go be a model instead.
Head shot? I must have mis-understood. Shucky Ducky! I sent them my money-shot. No wonder the fine folks in Athens didn't interview me!
So, if I am pretty good looking ... does that mean I won't be getting any love from Brown?
For their sake I hope not, because you sound pretty damned insufferable.
is there any hope for the "lesser breeds" of PhD in the application process at the Browns, Princetons, (or even the Tennessees and Wisconsins)?
People from lots of places have a chance. But the less lustrous your pedigree the better your work needs to be to overcome that.
Not on an SC, so this is just my opinion as a seasoned observer, but yes, your chances at any R-1 school with a grad program are poor unless you have an elite pedigree. I'm sure most SCs take a fair and balanced look at all the dossiers, but research-oriented places are looking ideally for a long record of achievement: that you went to an elite school as an undergrad, got into a selective grad program, won awards, published in prestigious journals etc. Obviously, you can make up ground by actually being a good scholar and proving by publishing important/interesting research, but you are competing against others who have checked off every box on that list. SLACs are a totally different ball game and I think with a few exceptions, experience matters more than pedigree.
I doubt that Brown will take a chance on someone who doesn't look good on paper. If they don't find exactly what they want (or think they want), they'll just cancel the search.
that you went to an elite school as an undergrad
The rest is fine, but I strongly disagree with this. Although where you went to grad school counts for a lot, nobody gives a rat's ass where you were an undergraduate.
Brown has been searching for various positions for years. Take a look at the ppl they brough to campus and you have your answer.
Oh, no, the lament about elite schools again! Remember last year someone claimed that you couldn't get a job if you didn't go to one of the top x places, when in fact people the year before had gotten jobs from about the top 3x places? Sure, in this as in any field, it helps to go to a place that trains you well, and a place that is known for training you well, and ideally a place that both trains you well and is known for training you well. But different SCs will have different ideas about which of the "top" places train you well, and which of the "up and coming" places might actually train you better.
Wow, the person who said letters hardly matter has had a very different experience on SCs from mine. Letters can do a lot: can testify that they have observed you teaching well, can claim that you know Greek, Latin or whatever well, can explain your research and why it's important. SCs also have to know how to read letters from different countries, from people who are famous for saying everyone is brilliant or conversely for being stingy with praise, from people who are or are not to be trusted when they say you will finish on time, etc. We always read letters with great care and discuss key points at meetings.
(my word verification is a gerund in the genitive)
Hey Stanford, ok, you rejected me. I'm over it. But it was bad enough you asked me to fill out your freaking survey after you already rejected me. But to continue sending me emails? FO already. And I'm less likely to fill out your survey when your message is less than polite (caps = shouting, I don't respond well to shouting).
Rant over.
"Listen close to everybody's heart, and hear that breaking sound; hopes and dreams are shattering apart and crashing to the ground."
To the people posting X2,3,4 on the Wiki:
Why? Are you just rubbing it in? Sad you did not get there first? Or is there a useful reason?
Anyone on here have intel about Oberlin? Will they ask for more materials or go straight to interview offers?
I think it's probably too late at this point to ask for more material and then use it as a basis for determining who gets an APA interview.
In general letters of recommendation bear so little resemblance to reality that I have stopped taking them seriously.
And if a recommender is needed to explain an applicant's research and why it's important, that means that the applicant hasn't been able to do so, which is not exactly a good sign.
Want...job...
I think the x2, x3 stuff is useful when it comes to interview requests and campus visits invitations, since theoretically it gives you an idea of how many people are being interviewed; why people add it to other things, I have no idea.
7:58, last year a school asked me for additional materials in the middle of December, and notified me regarding the interview a few days before Christmas.
Want...job...
I've just realized that at the convention it's basically like the hotel has been overrun by hordes of zombies, except that they want "jaaaaahhhb" instead of "braaaaaaains."
Plus there's the aimless shuffling, the terrible wardrobe, and the poor hygiene.
Other resemblances?
Feeling left out? Don't have an interview lined up in Philly? Wondering why you reserved a hotel room and booked a flight? Just annoyed at the world in general?
Fret no more!! Anybody who wants an interview, have I got a deal for you!
Meet me at Woody's Bar on Friday night of the APA. I'll be wearing a Glee t-shirt and purple cords. We can talk. You can lie to me about how much you want to teach Myth. I'll lie to you about the size of my enrollments. You can try to suss out the details of my interest, and I can watch the clock a bit too carefully. After your 30 minutes are up you can order as many martinis as you want, so long as you are no longer sitting in my booth. We can share awkward glances at the USC party later that night (or early Saturday morning, you know those USC folks.....), and maybe one of us will get lucky.
I can then ignore you when I see you waiting in line for the airport shuttle on Sunday. It'll be swell.
I just got the most "hilarious" rejection letter from Georgetown... apparently I did not match the job criteria "as articulated in their job description" and therefore they "focused on candidates whose accomplishments and expressed interests for the future would best meet their particular needs in classical Latin literature and language". Now, is there anything more vague than some unspecified particular needs (very unspecified yet particular indeed, both in the rejection letter and in the job description). Georgetown give me a break!
You do realize we personalized every single rejection letter we sent out? Right?
Even if it was true (and it is extremely unlikely):
1) Is your reply a threat? (in which case, how very kind of you!)
2) It does not change that the job post was extremely vague.
But Georgetown's PFO was rather obnoxious. They chose the best candidates. Why not just say so, instead of saying "The pool of candidates was excellent, and in evaluating candidates we
closely followed the criteria articulated in our job description and thus focused
on candidates whose accomplishments and expressed interests for the future
would best meet our particular needs in classical Latin literature and language"?
I can't believe some of you are whining about the standard wording (polite) in rejection letters. God, you would complain if Dr. Sens told you what you asked for. I mean even when the poor guy responds on Famae (kudos to him by the way), you question him. Ugh.
Can you guys please think before you write at least once (I am sure you'll state how I am a hater or something to that effect... pathetic).
The poster at 9:14 has misleadingly appropriated my name in his or her comment. I'm sorry if the rejection letter we sent out caused upset, but impersonating my identity online is a violation of every standard of professional ethics, of basic decency, and, I would presume, of the expectations of this blog.
I did not ask for anything. I simply decided to post my opinion. Period.
Cretan Alex Sens here.
Mad Props to Gtown Alex Sens for showing up to say hello and straighten the record. Seriously!
I should have put a smiley at the end of my joking reply to flag it properly. No offense meant to Gtown AS, and only teasing to the complainant. I'll shuffle back to my banal, anonymous existence in the intertubes now.
believe or not to believe :) ?
Is anyone else concerned that no jobs have been posted on the "new and improved" APA placement website since November 22?
"Is anyone else concerned that no jobs have been posted on the "new and improved" APA placement website since November 22?"
Yes. Where are all the VAPs? I heard that they normally come out in late November--is this incorrect?
yes. I wonder if institutions actually have job ads that aren't being posted.
My fear is that there are jobs being posted and the always stellar and on top of the job placement service has taken a rather long Thanksgiving holidy.
Where are all the VAPs? I heard that they normally come out in late November--is this incorrect?
January and February are the big VAP months.
A big hello to all you other people you applied to the Michigan job, whose names I now know.
The second you is supposed to be a who. I am strung out on the job market.
@12:10: Yeah, I noticed that as well. Hi!
Hey, they just posted two "new" jobs on the new APA website! One is the Miami job (which showed up on Famae first). The other? T-T at Wisconsin, deadline Nov. 15.
Dear Placement Service -
Just give up. You've made a noble effort, but posting information on a website in a timely fashion is clearly beyond your capabilities. Let the professionals here in Famae and Wiki-land take care of it for you.
There's also a position at Missouri Valley College showing up on the Chronicle of Higher Education but nowhere else.
For those of you sad about the Stanford job, their top priority is finding someone who complements the current faculty. Take note - not compliments as kissing ass, but complements current faculty strengths. So you could be super awesome, but your work and teaching might be too close to their current archaeology faculty for you to be the right person for the job. And their current faculty aren't planning on going anywhere soon. And you have to be someone who gets along with the anthropologists in the Archaeology Center, and with the anthropologists in the Center already at odds with one another, Classics has to be very careful whom they hire. So I know that doesn't help you get the job, but since I happen to have some insight into this particular search, I wanted to share it so you know that it could be for any or all of these reasons, rather than that you didn't have a fancy pedigree or weren't shiny enough.
I am outraged, outraged! that Georgetown did not send me a trophy for trying, or at least a certificate affirming my smart and specialness. You can bet they'll be hearing from my mother!
Seriously, though, is it permitted to clean up the Wiki (cheers and jeers), which is currently cluttered with somebody's issues? (Even though I do love the idea of a person being affronted by a "meaningless" rejection letter.)
Memphis, baby, why you gotta be like that?
Okay, so here's a gripe that will put those people whining about their rejection letters to shame. I've kept this bottled in for some time now, but can no longer remain silent: the Placement Service has got to learn that when providing a postal address it is proper style to have two spaces between the state abbreviation and the zip code. Every damn time I send out an application I have to waste my time inserting an extra into the address that I've copied from the website or e-mail. Don't we pay enough for the Placement Service to expect that to be done for us?!?
I now hate weekends. Seriously, no more information on interviews until Monday at the earliest? That's like a thousand years away.
Anonymous said...
I now hate weekends. Seriously, no more information on interviews until Monday at the earliest? That's like a thousand years away.
December 3, 2011 9:58 AM
Don't worry - once you've gone through the hell of the job market 4 or 5 times, you'll feel so much better about how slow this process is in this field.
The MIT shows great class and kindness in treating the candidates as persons rather than numbers. Other institutions please read, observe and LEARN!
The MIT shows great class and kindness in treating the candidates as persons rather than numbers. Other institutions please read, observe and LEARN!
Speak for yourself. I am a number and I resent being treated as though I were just another person.
Literally* I'm a letter (ΞΎ) and would like to be treated accordingly.
*My version of "personally", of course!
"The MIT shows great class and kindness in treating the candidates as persons rather than numbers. Other institutions please read, observe and LEARN!"
While I also appreciate MIT's behavior in this search, there are a number of schools that have been more considerate than normal (at least compared to last year) this time around. I really appreciate that some so far have sent out rejection letters quickly as opposed to having them filter in sometime in the summer.
Also, when schools are getting hundreds of applications in, I don't expect to be treated as anything but a number unless I make it to the late stages of the game. It's enough for me that a place like Georgetown sent out a nice enough PFO letter promptly; it's ridiculous and naive to expect them to send me a rejection letter detailing exactly in what areas I personally didn't measure up.
Yeah, I don't understand the huff about the wording of rejection letters. Who even takes the time to read those? I see that "unfortunately" vel sim. in the first or second sentence and move on to the next e-mail. There's no good way to say PFO.
Since folks understandably appreciate being notified promptly of their status one way or the other, I'll take the time here to apologize on behalf of MIT for the fact that we apparently *won't* be sending out any official rejections until after an offer has been formally accepted. I was told when I asked back in November that this is Institute rather than department policy. I'll ask again when we meet on Friday to hash out interviewees, but anticipate that it'll be the same response: no dice. Just an FYI.
Erm, on second thought, maybe that should be "hash out our interview list" ... hashing out the interviewees themselves sounds kinda violent....
Thanks for the info MIT person. Since you're around, thanks again for updating the wiki about the 12/9 meeting. It is appreciated.
I fear I will be only interviewing myself in Philadelphia. (Repeatedly).
Good to see that has will be involved in the MIT meeting. Good old Cambridge.
At least you've got stamina?
I fear I will be only interviewing myself in Philadelphia. (Repeatedly).
Watch out. If you do that too much you can go blind.
Just confirming what MIT said about the timing of rejection letters being governed by institutional policy -- I was on a SC committee last year at my SLAC, and the Dean informed us that we absolutely COULD NOT send out any rejection letters until an offer had been made and accepted (i.e., until March). We protested; we pointed out that this was both cruel and deeply disrespectful to the applicants who hadn't made our APA interview list, since there was really no likelihood that we'd ever go back and interview anyone whom we hadn't talked to at the APA (for one thing, the Dean would just declare a failed search if we tried to say "We want to bring someone to campus whom we didn't interview at the APA"). But -- the Dean was adamant. No rejection letters until the job had been formally accepted. Institutional policy.
I think this is not at all uncommon. Many of us on SCs really are not sadists or demons, and we do remember the agony of being on a desperately overcrowded job market. But in many cases, we are expressly forbidden to tell you, before the APA, that you're not going to get an APA interview. I'm sorry.
Anonymous said...
I now hate weekends. Seriously, no more information on interviews until Monday at the earliest? That's like a thousand years away.
December 3, 2011 9:58 AM
I just heard back from a school about an interview on a Sunday night. Now we can fret every day of the week.
You aren't going to tell us which school the rest of us just got rejected from?
Sooooooo. Madison, did you go Hellenist per your ad or did you go Latinist per famam volentem?
Volantem, silly.
They certainly didn't go with this Hellenist.
Pardon me while I put on my tin foil hat, but I'm wondering if anybody has ever heard the one about certain departments specifically never interviewing anyone who initially responded to the ads, because they're too "needy" or "desperate" or whatever? They just wait till the applications have come in and then start contacting people who didn't apply? It sounds nuts, but I've heard it from two different people now, neither of them known for making things up. And with all the other things places do, maybe it's not so far-fetched.
Anon 9.57 -- I suppose anything is *possible*, but I can only tell that at this institution, at least, there would be no possibility of doing a search among people who did not apply. The dossiers of the short list we want to bring to campus have to be read and approved by a whole phalanx of sub-deans before the Dean will "certify" the list and authorize the funding to fly them in; once we've made our pick, our choice has to be approved by sub-deans again, Dean, and President before an offer can be made; once an offer has been made (by the President), the Board of Trustees has to sign off on it. At each stage of that process, out comes the stack of dossiers again. And one thing that these administration types DO look at is date on letter of application and secretary's date stamp certifying that letter of application got there before deadline. (We also have to write up a detailed justification of why we, the SC, want to hire Candidate A instead of Candidate B or C.)
Believe me, there's no way we could say to the Dean "Oh, we just decided to bag the application process and call some people we've heard would be good hires." The search would be shut down so quickly your head would spin.
Some rumors really ARE to wacky to be true.
It wouldn't even be possible to do that unless you're talking about jobs not at entry level. Obviously people who don't have a TT job yet are applying to every job that fits them.
Wow. Being in this market is like having my guts ripped out over and over again.
Maybe I can get a pseudo-Aeschylean tragedy out of it?
don't bother; you couldn't put that kind of pub on your cv.
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