Well, I told myself that I was done, had said my bit and that's that, but I do need to respond to this. It may be that Scaevola has every bit the Latin training that our interview list has. We had over 20 people who met our criteria, and we chose 12 from those. Some people were too close to what people who are here already do and/or would have added less intellectual diversity, to grab an example. In other words, just because we aren't interviewing someone is not necessarily a reflection on that person's training (or brains, or work, or letters, or whatever). We are looking for the best fit and that is complicated. I certainly did not mean to insult anyone. Print versus conversation is way too fraught with the potential for reinterpretation.
I certainly did not mean to insult anyone. Print versus conversation is way too fraught with the potential for reinterpretation.
Yeah, this is the thing. Obviously people can make their own call here, but I think that there's not really a way that an institutional representative can communicate on here without creating more trouble than it's worth. People are really, really wrapped up in what you say and, if they haven't been advanced in your process, they have massive personal incentive to cast doubt on its legitimacy or rationality ("I don't understand how you can have come up with a bunch of archaeologists who are also the top experts on Latin literature on the market, but hey, I'm just glad you're being transparent about your weird, irrational, dubious decisions").
I think it's great that SC members want to maximize transparency, and I understand that job-seekers are desperate to know what's going on and have contact with a human being and are almost universally able to be cool. But there is high potential for whatever you say to come back and bite you in the ass.
For what it's worth as an anonymous poster, I don't think the SC member's posts are helpful...I second the comments about how they're likely to be received.
SLACs of all ranks love to talk about "fit" and their oh so special needs and how they seek people who are the best or near the best at everything. Reality is often a few steps away from those lofty sentiments.
So what we've decided is, in essence, that anonymous posts containing lies, half truths, empty accusations, whining, and pure ignorance are more "helpful" than posts by SC members? Sorry, I'd rather have information from a named source actually involved in running the process than an extended bitch session about how "those people" are stupid for not giving me an interview/job. I understand that people will tend to misinterpret every little thing written by an SC member, but doesn't that just confirm that the person doing the most complaining probably doesn't belong at the place in question - being incapable of communicating with a colleague, sometimes a senior colleague, is not exactly an asset.
I have absolutely no association with any of the searches being run this season, but I think it's downright classless to criticize anyone who puts their name on this blog and passes along real information about a search that they're running. The implication is that we're free to criticize perceived shortcomings in that particular search, anonymously, but that no named individual should be allowed to come onto our turf and give us actual information or respond to our complaints. Is that really what we want?
What we do with the information given is entirely our own business, but I have to think it's kind of nice to have the "brick wall" mentioned above actually respond to our complaints and pleas for mercy.
Actually, I think it's downright stupid to post named comments on an internet blog when you're running or involved in an active search process that go anywhere beyond the "Here's the timetable" sort of message.
What is this "must be registered with the Placement Service to interview at the APA" thing? That was not the case in my years on the market. Three of my friends on the market have had their registrations "lost" by the Placement Service, causing uncomfortable conversations with schools that want to interview them (and have been told they can't) and much trouble in trying to communicate with the APA (because as we all know, the Placement Service doesn't communicate well) and get the Placement Service to fix things. Some SCs offer alternative arrangements, like a phone interview, to candidates not registered, but we all know this is less desirable than face-to-face.
Other professional organizations - the AHA comes to mind - do not tell schools who they can and cannot interview at the convention. Perhaps this is just an attempt to streamline the process on the APA's part, but it seems pretty dodgy to me.
If anyone can reassure me about this, I'd like to hear about it. My department is waiting for authorization for a search for next year, and we want to be able to interview the candidates we want and not be told what to do.
the Placement Service exercises their chokehold (and stands as a monument to ineffective blundering) only b/c institutions continue to play their game. Candidates can't change the PS, but institutions who are members of the APA could. So, listen up ye who pull strings in the APA and make a change. oh - and the word 'Service' hardly belongs in the equation, b/c there is none.
I am just a lowly job-seeker and while i appreciate any clarity that can be had in this murky process, it looks risky (to me) for a SC chair to name themselves, offer opinions and self-justification, and then reveal internal details about the search they are running. just saying, seems like a liability.
this space also saw the 'someone pretends to be a SC chair' episode not long ago. as ever, FV is a bit dodgy and always has to be treated with skepticism...
As a former SC chair, let me make it quite clear that if we wanted to interview somebody, we would. It's not hard to send an email and arrange an interview. The Placement Service can prevent institutions from using one of the "official" rooms at the conference, but plenty of interviews have taken place in hotel suites, or other unregulated, private places, as we all know. The PS acts as facilitator, not gatekeeper.
thanks to former SC chair for that comment, but many (many) institutions tell us candidates that we must be registered with PS b/c of the use of rooms, the school not having a suite, etc. so I politely disagree that the PS is a not a gatekeeper. and the fact that institutions and candidates pay quite tidy sums to the PS and receive crap in return is pretty unfortunate and is never remedied. even the vaunted new web gimmick is pretty lame.
I think it was quite humane of Prof. Neumann to come here and offer some information. I didn't apply to the Davidson job, so perhaps it is easy for me to offer a comment, but it seems like they can pick whomever they think is the best *for their position.* They don't have to justify a thing. Now, if the job called for a Romanist/Archaeologist, and they ended up hiring a Hellenist/Philosopher, we'd have grounds for bitching. But that would be all we'd have grounds for: bitching. The department and the college advertised fairly and widely, apparently read through the files carefully, and came up with a list to interview. What is so controversial?
isn't it generally viewed as bad form to interview candidates in your private hotel room? not that i like PS (hate it), but i don't want to be sitting on the loveseat while the SC sits on the edge of the bed. been there, done that. don't like it. so if you run the PS blockade, where do you have your interviews? a bar? the lobby? taxi cab?
yes, once had an interview in a tiny hotel room with 4 SC people (from an elite top 10 Classics program), me, and what looked like two days worth of dirty room-service trays. the SC chair was sitting so close to me that his knees repeatedly bumped my own. really uncomfortable. so, while we need something to replace or fix the stupid PS, that model does not work (at least not for this wayfarer) ...
I once had an interview in an Appleby's near the convention hotel. It was quite collegial (I even had a few onion rings and a pepsi) and yet much more intense than the "regular" interviews. It also went way over our 30 minutes, which could be construed as good or bad, I suppose. Didn't get the job, but I still say hello to those who interviewed me.
I love the idea of interviewing in a taxi. Kinda like that show Cash Cab. We'll call it Job Cab! Candidates won't know they are being interviewed until they get in. And we can rotate which institutions run the taxi every few hours. Wander around the streets of Philly, and find out you just scored a fly-out to Davidson when you didn't even apply. Nice
can you win cash prizes in the Job Cab? recoup your losses from the horrendous job search? i would definitely go double or nothing if the game was to identify some passage from Latin lit or identify an ancient monument... it would be delicious for the SC chair to hand over a wad of cash ...
this cab idea has legs - then you could just replace RP and PS with a taxi dispatcher and a bellman, and away we go. plus, spring for some flashy lights ...
Actually, I think it's downright stupid to post named comments on an internet blog when you're running or involved in an active search process that go anywhere beyond the "Here's the timetable" sort of message.
Great. So now some dunderhead has essentially called the Davidson SC chair "stupid," with the only piece of evidence being that she attempted to clarify for some of you the thinking behind what was a perfectly clear job posting to anyone whose dissertation ink is dry by now. (Disclaimer: I did not apply for the Davidson position, since even though I can most certainly bill myself as a Latinist with material culture expertise it was clear that I wasn't a good fit. And I was right.)
Is participating in a dig or being actively involved in one the only way to show deep work in material culture for your job? Because that is what it sounds like, and that is a rather old fashioned definition of material culture. What about a large number of Classicists whose work largely depends on material culture (ancient historians, art historians, epigraphers, ancient religion scholars, etc) that may not have dig work? Were they considered?
Is participating in a dig or being actively involved in one the only way to show deep work in material culture for your job?
--No, and nothing in our ad said or implied that
What about a large number of Classicists whose work largely depends on material culture (ancient historians, art historians, epigraphers, ancient religion scholars, etc) that may not have dig work? Were they considered?
Dude, if you don't dig then you aren't an archaeologist.
They want someone who can help with the archaeology concentration, not the look-at-pretty-pictures, or look-at-pretty-carved-letters concentration.
They already have one dig in Cyprus, and are no doubt looking for another dig association, preferably a director. They aren't messing around, have clear expectations, and, quite frankly, few people can really, truly meet those expectations. Fair enough. Move along.
December 16, 2011 12:11 PM Anonymous said... Dude, if you don't dig then you aren't an archaeologist.
They want someone who can help with the archaeology concentration, not the look-at-pretty-pictures, or look-at-pretty-carved-letters concentration.
They already have one dig in Cyprus, and are no doubt looking for another dig association, preferably a director. They aren't messing around, have clear expectations, and, quite frankly, few people can really, truly meet those expectations. Fair enough. Move along.
December 16, 2011 12:09 PM Jeanne Neumann said... Is participating in a dig or being actively involved in one the only way to show deep work in material culture for your job?
--No, and nothing in our ad said or implied that
What about a large number of Classicists whose work largely depends on material culture (ancient historians, art historians, epigraphers, ancient religion scholars, etc) that may not have dig work? Were they considered?
--yes, absolutely.
I don't know who to believe! Search committee chair? Or anonymous internet guy?
Ok, look, I also had decided that I was done, but I just have one thing to say. I feel responsible for creating this whole mess with Davidson in the first place. Sure it's easy for me to hide behind a mask of anonymity and speak my mind on here. I never expected anyone to respond, but once she did, I decided to engage in a dialogue. I asked for answers, I got them. Yes, words were misconstrued, but this was all cleared up. It's hard to be stoic when you receive so many rejections and your life is seemingly passing you by without any security or hope for the future. Sometimes I need to vent, and I can't do that with colleagues for obvious reasons. I'm happy that I was able to see into the process for one particular search. Will this help me in the future? I don't know. I never intended for anyone to criticize Prof. Neumann, who has put herself in a difficult situation by appearing on this blog. I'm allowed to be disappointed for not getting an interview. That's my right. If I didn't believe I deserved one, I would quit searching and find another career. But I love what I do - and I'm going to keep trying.
RE: FSU. Inside source has it that committee is still deciding. Interview requests probably won't go out until at least next week. But hey, I'm anonymous internet guy, so take that as you will.
Dallas told me (in the email noting that they had received my application for the TT position) that they wouldn't be deciding on interviews until mid-late December. You probably got the same one, but I figured I'd pass it on just in case.
Winnipeg takes the prize for the weirdest job ad of the year. They probably won't be interviewing at the APA, and if you're not a Canadian, fuhgeddaboudit.
Re: the Winnipeg job, the old canard that Canadians only hire Canadians is untrue. Canadian institutions are required to identify the top 3 Canadian applicants and then give reasons for not hiring them (i.e., why they were unsuitable for the job, e.g., not in the specified area, inadequate evidence of publication, insufficient teaching experience, etc.). That's it. C'est tout (as we say up here). But - it is also true that Canadians might be more likely stay at a Canadian institution and not yearn to go home, whether to the US or the UK. So, yes, there can be a preference for the right Canadian if there is good reason to hope that that person will in fact want to come to Canada and will stay in the position (although history proves that Canadians leave Canada for jobs elsewhere too, so there are never guarantees). And if you did a search you would see many recent hires across Canadian Classics who are not Canadian; Classics is just too small a field for this not to be the case. So that's that (although I agree that the Winnipeg job description is weird and must reflect a heavy decanal hand).
Re: Colgate. I spoke to them on the phone today and they said that yesterday was the last day they were accepting applications (bc they started reviewing files on 15 Nov.). In other words, they are only now going to start looking at this stuff for real. When I asked at what point they might be contacting people about interviews, the answer was end of month-ish, beginning of next-ish (although to be fair, I, exasperated, put those words in the secretary's mouth).
Well, this is how the conversation went towards the end: so, if they haven't yet started reviewing the applications, does this mean that we won't find out until the end of this month, or even beginning of next whether we have an interview?" [TC, surprised/annoyed]. "Myes". "What if I can't make it to the APA, given that it might be a last minute thing?" "That won't disqualify you". So, I suppose I kind of provoked that answer by being pushy, but in reality I think they will let people know before the APA. Hope that helps.
The comment about how 7 people have 47 of the interviews reminds me of the story of the person not too many years ago who *accepted* two jobs, and the two schools found out about this only in the summer, when the person finally had to choose.
Has anyone heard from Loyola Maryland? The wiki update from the SC indicates that they were letting people know this week, but there aren't any further updates.
For those who think that Canadian Universities are only interested in Canadian applicants, you might note that not only is UWO apparently interviewing Americans this year, but they hired two of them into TT positions last year.
As a proud Canadian, I feel I must interject here. It absolutely is the case that Canadians/permanent residents are preferred for jobs at the majority of schools in Canada. Sure, the big schools (UofT, McGill, Western) will hire non-Canadians. But look at the pattern of hiring across Canada over the past 5 years and you will find that overwhelmingly, those schools aside, Canadians are being hired for jobs at most schools (cf. e.g. Dalhousie, Brock, Manitoba, UBC, etc. etc.) No skin off my back: better odds for me! And I;m sure glad I'm not one of the two-dozen or so Toronto graduates on the market this year, either!
Here's a question about Hamilton. The wiki indicates that Hamilton sent out rejection emails on the 15th, but doesn't indicate anything about interview requests. I applied there and have heard nothing in response. Are there other people in the same boat? Could it be that Hamilton has sent out rejections but no requests for interviews?
Regarding Hamilton: I'm in the same boat. Applied, haven't been rejected yet etc. I'm hoping that, like Maryland seems to have done, they just sent their list of interviewees to the APA and an interview will just appear on my home screen. I have a few friends who also applied. One has been rejected, the other also has heard nothing.
I wish one could auction off one's classics job (even given the broke status of the potential buyers). Given this job market, imagine the profit potential for those of us in tenured/tenure-track classics positions who can't stand our lives if we could just auction off our job to the highest bidder.
I wish one could auction off one's classics job (even given the broke status of the potential buyers). Given this job market, imagine the profit potential for those of us in tenured/tenure-track classics positions who can't stand our lives if we could just auction off our job to the highest bidder.
the jobless encourage you to quit and get out of the way.
OK, I'm listening. I have questions. Cooked or uncooked? If cooked, does the flavor packet go in? If so, which flavor? And if uncooked, does it stay inside the packaging, or not?
Anyone get a sense of how interviews are being scheduled? The interviews that notified me early are on there, and one I just got is on there, but ones in the middle are not. Is it random?
same here! I have two - one that contacted me a bit ago that is nowhere on my schedule and then a new one that is on there right away. Did I make the first one up?
I'm getting worried about the scheduling. None of mine are showing up. Some notified me weeks ago, some just this week. Is there anyone who has no interviews showing?
It would probably never occur to some whiners...both candidates and search committee members...to THANK the PS staff for what they do, which is a lot harder and more involved than someone thinks who sits at their computer completely consumed by only their own situation.
It would never occur because it's a paid service, and they do a terrible job. If it were free, and/or they did it well, we'd all be grateful for that fact.
why should anyone be grateful for a "service" that charges a fee and then does terrible work, year upon year? who would be thankful for that? i personally know minimum-wage earners who do scheduling for a living - and it is not difficult. cry me a river, oh you PS sympathizers. you're part of the (sad) reason it never changes.
It would probably never occur to some whiners...both candidates and search committee members...to THANK the PS staff for what they do, which is a lot harder and more involved than someone thinks who sits at their computer completely consumed by only their own situation.
The placement service has always been a complete shit-show fail parade, because it's a monopoly with no incentive to provide good customer service or value for money. (Reminds me of this old Lily Tomlin bit.) What's more, it is now a monopoly whose chief function has now been made basically obsolete by technology.
At least you have interviews that are failing to appear...
And you don't spend your time angry that the Placement Service defender cannot arrange agreement ("someone...their") in the style of most undergraduates.
The lameness and misery of it all. Is someone still planning on auctioning off jobs?
And you don't spend your time angry that the Placement Service defender cannot arrange agreement ("someone...their") in the style of most undergraduates.
Not the defender, but we have been doing this in colloquial English for hundreds of years now. Do you really go around saying "her or his" all the time? And if you do, don't you get tired of people throwing things at you and yelling at you to go away?
Please remember that the "no names" policy includes private individuals who themselves are neither candidates nor SC members themselves. If you want to protest how individuals are doing their job, please write a letter to the APA. We appreciate the need to vent about the APA Placement Service. Please refrain from attacking people by name, however, while doing so.
Comments making use of individuals' names/initials are being deleted. Please avoid this in the future in order to prevent thread mutilation.
The practice of referring to the individual in question by name or initials has been going on for quite some time, years, if I'm not mistaken. Why the change now?
So obviously we must in future refer to said APA employee as "she who must not be named." Or we could just start calling her Voldemort.
Yes, obviously the policy has its limits. Perhaps it would be better to abide by the spirit rather than the letter of the law?
The practice of referring to the individual in question by name or initials has been going on for quite some time, years, if I'm not mistaken. Why the change now?
Yes, and we felt that we had to delete a large number of such references last year. Before that we weren't in this position, so you'd have to take up the issue of long-term consistency with previous mods. It seems that the outlines are clear, difficult as they may be to put into practice with absolute consistency.
All of this editorial authorization may seem crude, and downright ineffective in the face of figured speech, but feel free to explore the job boards for other disciplines in order to get a sense of the alternatives. It is ugly.
If we worried more about fixing a serious problem that has gone on for far too long and less about the use of two letters, we might be on the road to improvement.
If we worried more about fixing a serious problem that has gone on for far too long and less about the use of two letters, we might be on the road to improvement.
Agreed. Our guess - and it is just that - is that the institution would be more likely to enact real change if it weren't given a reason to circle the wagons around what it might perceive as unfair, public attacks on an individual within the institution.
This is a place to complain in general terms, and about structures and institutions. More pointed, personal complaints need proper addresses attached to them, and those addresses lie elsewhere.
hey, Servius. the "institution" of which you speak knows not change. and will not. make all the excuses you want. for all we know, you are the APA administrator(s).
You are correct about other disciplines' job blogs.
However, my understanding was that FV's rule had a very limited exception with respect to one person (or perhaps two) because, given their offices, it was not possible to discuss them or their actions in general, non-specific terms.
hey, Servius. the "institution" of which you speak knows not change. and will not. make all the excuses you want. for all we know, you are the APA administrator(s).
And we would have gotten away with this, too, if not for you meddling kids! *^)
However, my understanding was that FV's rule had a very limited exception with respect to one person (or perhaps two) because, given their offices, it was not possible to discuss them or their actions in general, non-specific terms.
Hmmmm. That may be the case. We'll have to ask our predecessors. But after some discussion last night we decided to err on the side of caution with respect to naming.
You are correct about other disciplines' job blogs.
Yes, and all of those are examples of roads we don't wish to take. Thus what might look like a heavy-handed response.
I have a couple of off topic questions that have little to do with the searching at hand, so I apologize for not using this space to contribute to the bilious snark.
1) I wrote my dissertation in latex (talk about your sexy dissertations!)and now that I'm looking to revise for publication I'm wondering if press editors have issues with this format? Anyone have experience in this area? I really hate the thought of reverting so much work to M$word.
2) How common is it that someone might manage a book contract but never gets a TT job? Just wondering.
I am trying to determine why I have so few interviews this applications season, in order to determine whether it's time to throw in the towel.
How much difference did it make that I did not have my dissertation finished when applying for jobs? I will have it defended by February; so if committees read my full letter, they would have known that I will definitely finish it this academic year. Am I being paranoid, or is it likely that a lot of committees never really considered by file because I am ABD?
No matter the answer to this question, there are obviously a ton of other factors at play. My question is whether I can rule out this factor as actually relevant. Any insight (especially from people on search committees this year or ABD's who have interviews) would be greatly appreciated.
If you have ANY interviews as an ABD then I'd say you're ahead of the game. I have a PhD in hand and no interviews for TT jobs (and am a VAP right now), to put it into perspective. Question is, should *I* throw in the towel?
I am ABD, with a dissertation certainly done next semester, and have two interviews thus far. However hard it is to silence that voice in your head, take heart and be patient. It will happen.
I had two interviews ABD last year. This year I have six so I don't know if it's that I finished or produced some publications in the meantime that made the difference. I'm convinced that a lot of schools do not consider ABDs in this economic climate where it's a buyer's market.
I have heard that some ABDs are getting interviews, and some PhDs without publications are getting interviews, but virtually no ABDs without publications are being interviewed.
Anon 1:12 here... True. I am ABD but have 5 publications and significant field work and teaching experience. I think that the idea is variety of experience, not necessarily time to completion.
I'm ABD (will certainly defend in early spring), I have one interview, and I feel pretty lucky to have landed it. (I have a couple of applications where the jury is still out, but I'm not holding my breath.) For one thing, I think a dissertation chapter when the work as a whole is still in progress is not the strongest writing sample. I think that's one of several factors not working in my favor. I'm hoping that by next year I'll have something more polished. (What kind of employment woes I may go through in the mean time is another issue.)
I believe that many committees will not consider ABDs unless you have a letter from someone that they trust willing to swear on a stack of bibles that you'll finish. You are a risk that they don't need to take, when every school has a story of a hired ABD who turned out not to be all that close to finishing, which of course puts you behind in the tenure process and imperils the position.
It's also a hirer's market this year. There are a good number of jobs, but a vast number of applicants who might have gotten tenure-track jobs in 2009, 2010, or 2011 were it not for the economy.
And so committees can, and some do, thin their applications by weeding out anyone without a Ph.D. in hand. Then they still have a plentiful pile of excellent candidates, and they don't have to worry whether their hire will in fact defend in time.
Interview requests from FSU came on 12/17 by email. I am a Roman archaeologist working on North African material. I am associated with a field project that is not actively working at the moment (our permit was in limbo even before the Jasmine Revolution), but I do have field experience.
And for the record, I was extremely surprised to be asked. This is my first year on the market and I know there are many other candidates more senior and more experienced than I.
I am ABD, and have multiple interviews. Every time I have gotten a request my spouse has had to reel me back down from the ceiling where I'm floating on Cloud 9 and stick me back in front of my dissertation until dinner.
I have several publications and teaching experience in both language and civ. The places where I'm getting interviews are for the most part the ones where I thought I'd fit, not the long shot ones where I thought "they'll never hire me but I'll send something anyway because you never know."
I feel extremely fortunate to have interviews and am just trying to prevent myself from looking at houses and preschools in those locations online (yes, I'm an eternal optimist and a first-timer, snark away).
Is there a limited returns point, or clearly demarcated "give up" spot, on the Classics job market. I was 0-fer ABD w/ two publications last year, and O-fer this year with degree in hand and Visiting position (submitted an article 7 months ago, but no response as of yet)... and still 0-fer. If it is a "not enough pubs" thing, it may be worth sticking around, but if it is something else that is holding me back than it may be best to simply cut my losses.
The traditional alternate career is giving tug jobs down by the docks. If your city is not located on a major body of water, I'm not sure where you would set up shop. Bus station, maybe.
"And for the record, I was extremely surprised to be asked. This is my first year on the market and I know there are many other candidates more senior and more experienced than I."
You wouldn't be so surprised if you knew the dynamics of the department in questions. Think UT lite. You seem to fit the historical target demographic well.
Anon 9:26: hahahahahaha. Wow, trying for a twofer smackdown, eh? That was hilarious because you really can't know much if you are equating those two places. Your ignorance is stunning, even for this forum.
to the earlier poster, congrats on the interview. go knock it out of the park and try to ignore what the dipstick above said. Better yet, you can judge for yourself when you talk to faculty.
For what it is worth, since this is something I didn't realize early on in my years on the market, the best way to find out about any department short of being part of it is 1. meet and talk to the people who are there and, well, no, that's the end of the list. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors. Including any douchebag invective from Dr. "heard something from a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy" Dipstick ((or is it, more likely, Mr. or Ms.?)
(I'm sorry, couldn't resist. Just joshing you anon 9:26. Though I'm still serious about your spectacular ignorance of the department and individuals about which you speak. And let's not kid ourselves. You are attacking individuals. That is way not cool, not least of all because, again, you are so incredibly ignorant. and smelly. Yes, indeed, anon 9:26 smells like feet. See how easy that is to insult people anonymously? Henceforth anon 9:26 will be known on these boards as smelly-footed Achilles for his swift, yet smelly, rush to impugn the reputation of any department that dare be mentioned on this field.)
I have no dog in this fight, but I just wanted to nominate Archilochus' comment for best comment of the year. It's all there: piles of cliches, desperate sweaty failed attempts at humor, bizarre midway course reversal ("just joshing"—about what?!? where?!?) immediately re-reversed (I think?), and the least imaginative insult you will ever find.
I know it's just a comment, but I think it's important to recognize excellence wherever it arises.
I'm with 1:48 AM on this one. Besides, Archilochus really could have done better than "smelly-footed Achilles". Come on, dude - Philoctetes was the obvious choice. Novice level Classics insult. And this is coming from an oversexed, overworked, ignorant archaeologist.
This is eerily reminiscent of the SFSU hullabaloo from a couple months ago.
So the best way to find out about a department is by "talking" to them for 30 minutes in an inquisitorial style setting where they hold all the cards? Yeah, that makes sense. SC members, remember to take your meds before embarrassing yourself on FV.
Let's start a pool for one of the superstars with twenty interviews if they ask the FSU search committee, "I heard you guys are a bunch of wannabe UT sabretooths? Why DID the last position holder not get tenure when the department is largely populated by senior faculty? What's your tenure rate? Why do junior faculty who can seem to leave? Is it because Tallytown is smelly?"
C'mon, folks, we can surely raise $5000 by January!
Thanks do ask, do tell. That's the sort of specific information I was looking for. Confirmed what I thought was the issue here.
Anon 1:48 and 9:34 nailed it. The SFSU thing was the inspiration and 1:48 cataloged most of the tropes. The smelly insult is lame, but I liked how ridiculous it was with the pseudo-scholarly contrast of Homer and Archilochus. You didn't mention my overblown concern for job candidates or the equally lame insult of dipstick.
I'm afraid I'm not a medicated SC member. I was going for concerned friend, but figured if I left it unstated than you all would assume and pile on as you tend to do. Wish I was on the SC though; looks like it might be interesting. Smoke and mirrors, people. And "Archilochus"? Really, is that guy NOT going to be full of crap?
Props to Roanoke College for providing interviewees with some meaty information long in advance of the interview. Now, if the flipping placement service would only tell me when that interview would be...
seriously, the PS is a fail. even with their web gimmick. we know that the servius overlord will remove names, so this is a shout-out en masse to all elected APA and AIA officials - dude, fix the PS or kill it. simple enough for ya?
don't be eager to know your interview schedule, folks. not like the PS has a web scheduling tool to streamline the process ... I want a refund. oh, and way to go with continuing to post expired job ads on the protected site. so useful.
Did everyone that applied receive a confirmation from the University of Dallas? The wiki says that they did send confirmation. I send mine via interfolio but never received confirmation . . .
For those of you unregistered with the placement service, the following is from the email sent out today:
"Ho Ho Ho!
Happy Holidays to all!
A good number of you have been writing to me, informing me that one institution or another has contacted you, stating that they plan to interview you at the convention! That's AWESOME! Congratulations!
This great news now brings up a few questions: so where's that interview on my calendar???? Did you forget me??? Was this a mistake???
PLEASE DO NOT PANIC! :o)
I have been doing nothing but scheduling interviews! It is far easier/faster for a college to send off a quick email to give you the heads up than it is for me to schedule the appointments. Because we are now online, I no longer have my "kitchen help." Things that I was able to pass off to Ms. XXXX and XXXXXX now have to be done by one person (me) simply because we don't have 3 computers in the kitchen.
So, that being said, PLEASE DO NOT write to me to say/ask "so and so wants to see me, where's this interview on my calendar." Rome was not built in a day. I have 2 weeks left to complete this humongous task, brick by brick, scheduling one interview appointment at a time. If you don't see that appointment today, RELAX! Check back in a couple of days. I still have PLENTY of appointments to schedule, and really, no time to reply to individual inquiries. That appointment WILL show up eventually!
Thank you in advance for your patience and understanding. Now I have a few (hundred) more appointments to schedule. :o)"
Jesus fucking christ. Scheduling software. My apologies to the religious crowd, but it appears only JC can bring sense to the madness that is the placement service.
I suspect that in most any other kind of work, an offensive email like that would get someone on probation, fired, reprimanded, replaced, something'd. But not at the APA.
Through this whole process, I haven't understood why Classics can't do what English does for MLA: search chairs or dept admins call/email candidates and ask for an interview, offering a range of times; candidates pick; much fun is had by all. Candidates don't pay for a "service" that the vast majority of you appear (justly!) to hate, and SCs aren't left hanging wondering whether/hoping that their interviews actually get scheduled. In other words, if it's any consolation to you guys, I suspect a lot of SCs are like mine: just as annoyed by the Placement Service as you are.
If a student had written something like that, we'd have to have a conversation about the appropriate way to write a professional e-mail. Luckily my students don't typically do that.
Absolutely astounding. The APA finally forces on the Placement Service scheduling software so that the scheduling process will not take weeks and weeks, and here we are being told that the scheduling process will take weeks and weeks. Doesn't this software have a button (or menu option) that automatically matches up search committee and candidate? If not, the software should be improved; if so, one wonders why that button isn't being pressed. Is there a legitimate reason, or is this all being done manually as busy work?
If anyone wants to raise this issue at a higher level, these are the people on the committee overseeing the Placement Service: Erich Gruen (2009-2012), Chair Michael Lippman (2010-2013) Ilaria Marchesi (2010-2013) David S. Potter (2011-2014) Pamela Vaughn (2011-2014) Joy Connolly, ex officio Barbara Barletta (2009-2012) Betsey Robinson (2010-2013)
I have had a feeling all along that "scheduling software" was not "software that does scheduling" but rather "software that you type your schedule into after you've worked it out with pen and paper the way you've always done."
I'm pretty sure that this whole thing could be done for free using something like this.
with a few simple linked tables and some queries, this problem would be solvable in much less time than the email claims is necessary. and the issue is not about having multiple computers or multiple people in your kitchen.
Things that I was able to pass off to Ms. XXXX and XXXXXX now have to be done by one person (me) simply because we don't have 3 computers in the kitchen.
Yep, that's how computer machines work. You gotta have at least three of them and they all have to be in the same room, preferably at your house. If you don't have that many or they're in different rooms, it makes things go really slow.
I have 2 weeks left to complete this humongous task, brick by brick, scheduling one interview appointment at a time.
Ordinarily I would assume that these bricks are metaphorical, but I kind of suspect that somewhere in a Pennsylvania kitchen there is right now slowly rising an actual brick structure that has something to do with scheduling APA interviews.
I'm thinking here that either what the APA has acquired is not actual scheduling software or the person or persons responsible for administering the software do not know how to use it properly.
If this blog brings about one, simple change, it will forever more be considered a smashing success. Please, Erich Gruen et al., make it so. Please. We beg you.
As if the job market isn't enough of an ego smashing scouring of souls, now I have to get emails from a "professional" (and I only use that term because I pay for it) placement service that looks like my 11 year old niece wrote it.
I do want to say something that is not really a defense of the annual clown show but I hope will help people dial back the distress a little bit.
Traditionally the PS has been incredibly slow and has caused inconvenience, unnecessary expense, anxiety, and frustration. These qualities are their hallmark, you might say. Also they kind of treat you like shit. However, so far as I know, they don't actually fuck up the interviews themselves—that is, no institution will request an interview with a candidate and not get one. So I'm sure she's right: you will hear about your interview, eventually, and you shouldn't panic.
Again, not endorsing the shitty system, just saying that there has always been a floor to how shitty it is.
I'm sorry, but I fail to see what is so offensive about that e-mail. Yes, there may have been a plethora of emotica, and yes, the tone was very familiar. Those of you who have been on the market before may recall the "dog track" e-mail that cheered us all during the Thanksgiving season; there is no question in my mind that that e-mail crossed a line. I cannot, however, see what it is about this latest missive that is causing such mental anguish for so many folks. By contrast with the e-mail I have just mentioned, in which we were all mocked for our failure to compensate for an error made by the PS, this email seems like a perfectly reasonable, if hyperbolically phrased, request for all of the neurotic people, who somehow feel that a little orange placeholder on an electronic screen guarantees them an interview when a direct communication from the SC chair does not, take a chill pill and stop clogging the sender's inbox. Honestly, how many of you have ever sent a similar mass e-mail to an entire lecture section because they were getting too many neurotic repetitions of the same idiotic question to answer individually?
Honestly, how many of you have ever sent a similar mass e-mail to an entire lecture section because they were getting too many neurotic repetitions of the same idiotic question to answer individually?
I assume that it's the combination of feeling patronized (I think it's telling that your analogy is the teacher-student relationship), the fact that the writer is complaining about how monumentally difficult her job is to people who have paid for her to do it, and the fact that the reason for the monumental difficulty—that the entire thing is being done on clay tablets in cuneiform—is a completely illegitimate one.
I mean, Jesus, you usually get better service if you call the cable company or your bank, and that's saying something.
The attitude of the email is nothing new. It can be summed up as, "You ungrateful brats. You're spoiled, entitled whiners who should be grateful I do this for you. Welcome to the real world, where your privileged PhD in an obscure field counts for next to nothing. Suck it up. You'll get your interview, no matter how slow this operation, and there's nothing you can do about this process or how its conducted."
While we wait for the jobs you mention to show up on wiki, here's a fun game we can play: who has the highest candidate number with the Placement Service?
I lose automatically, because my number is low, but it would be interesting to get a sense of how many people registered. It would be a nice follow-up to our argument at the beginning of the thread. If you don't want to give your exact number, give a range: e.g. mine is in the single digits.
I guess Dr. Sunshine and Lollipops (aka August 28, 2011 1:00 am) was correct.
At least I'm not the only one who was wrong:
"But in 2003-4, there were 362 candidates registered with the placement service; I find hard to believe there will be more for the 2011-12 job cycle. Surely the past few years of brutal job prospects has thinned the herd, so to speak, as the wiser among us pursue other careers."
I'm interested to see how many TT positions actually get filled by people who have ever held one before. If it's less than 25, I'm jumping off the Bay Bridge.
So, is the plan to experience rejection and then wait around indefinitely on the chance that someone will eventually install a pedestrian walkway on the bridge?
Now, if you want to get run over on a bridge, that's a different story: the Bay Bridge would be great!
The way I see it, this is the last straw. We need to rise up and demand our rights. First, everyone who registers for the placement service should be guaranteed an interview. Not an interview for every position, but for at least one position. This shouldn't be too hard to arrange. Second, there should be a system for voting on campus interviews. Every institution should have to make public whom it has invited to campus, and if the applicants don't agree with that list there should be a vote of the other applicants on what other candidates should be invited, and the final list should be a combination of the original list and the subsequent poll. Third, if the person eventually hired does not meet with the approval of the original applicants there should be a poll about whether to censure that institution. I realize it wouldn't be possible to overrule an institution's decision, but there should be consequences, probably in the form of a list published on the internet with black marks against institutions that chose badly. This would be an excellent way to restore some fairness and democracy to the system. And right now when everything is in chaos is the best time to push for change. Some will say that this infringes on the right of the institutions to make what decisions they feel are in their best interests, but if there is one thing that has been proven over and over again it is that institutions do not know how to make decisions in their own best interest and that they instead pick almost randomly, perhaps even with a bias towards the worse candidate. If they can't manage it themselves, the only right way is to add an element of crowdsourcing to the whole thing. Perhaps we can help save the colleges and universities from themselves.
I hereby call on all of the current and future elected officials of the AIA/APA to work out the details of and implement this blueprint. I know it seems extreme, but it is the last chance for classics.
"So, is the plan to experience rejection and then wait around indefinitely on the chance that someone will eventually install a pedestrian walkway on the bridge?"
We've already decided that we're carpooling. You are a slow one, eh?
"I'm not jumping just yet. I applied for every possible job, even the senior ones. And those are still in play according to the wiki, so there is hope!"
Damn it, I knew I should have applied for at least one of those. They probably wouldn't acknowledge my pitiful attempt with a rejection letter and I, too, could have held out hope. I truly am a probie in a world where even veterans are roadkill.
Why no love for the Richmond bridge? San Mateo? Dumbarton? C'mon people, if we all only apply to T1 research bridges, it's gonna be a clusterfuck come d-day....
to achieve any result with integrity you'd first need to know how many PhDs are in the sample and then how many of them chose to pursue an academic t-t career. i don't think anyone tracks this data, tho it would be useful.
I was responsible for the optimism just cited and, if candidate numbers really go into the 500s, I'm not ashamed to admit that I was wrong. I was also, I admit, overly optimistic about my own prospects; there were certainly a number of positions where I thought I had very good chance of getting an interview but didn't. Even if overall demand is up slightly (and even if there are more T-T jobs this year, as it seems), supply of PhDs has increased at a faster pace and it remains a buyers' market.
There's a bit more complexity here, however, when you consider the number of applicants jobs have been getting, as cited in rejection letters. For instance: Hamilton (1 year VAP): ca. 130 SFSU (T-T Open Field): ca. 200 Boston College (T-T Latin Lit.): 127
These numbers are high, no question, but not incredibly so. Nor do I think many legitimate, qualified candidates would refuse to apply to these schools. So I surmise that are around 200-250 philologists out there looking for a T-T job, and maybe 130-150 of those are Latinists. The Hamilton number, however, is scary -- fully half or maybe more than half of this total group are not in continuing or permanent positions. But in any case, who are the other 250 candidates? Archeologists, et al.? Or mostly people who are applying to 1-2 select positions? I would be interested to know, if the APA ever got around to updating their statistics.
Have any schools other than the three mentioned by Silenus provided numbers of applicants? If so, we should post everything. If any SC members could provide info, even anonymously, that would help. Maybe leave those numbers on the wiki?
Wow, interesting. We got way fewer (not quite 100) apps for a TT Latin job with a 2-2 teaching load. Perhaps there is a geographical bias in choosing where to apply?
I would caution against making any strong conclusions when Hamilton and SFSU comprise the bulk of the data. As this very website outlines in gory details, both positions have a history of baggage that precludes them from representing a typical VAP and open field junior position.
I would caution against making any strong conclusions when Hamilton and SFSU comprise the bulk of the data.
Those are the kinds of things that would make you think about whether to accept the job if offered it, not the kind that would prevent you from putting in an application in the first place.
If you're one of the hated ones looking to upgrade through a lateral move, you might avoid applying if you suspect you're leaving one shitfest to enter a bigger one.
1,406 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 801 – 1000 of 1406 Newer› Newest»isn't the "archaeology" getting lost in this?
Well, I told myself that I was done, had said my bit and that's that, but I do need to respond to this. It may be that Scaevola has every bit the Latin training that our interview list has. We had over 20 people who met our criteria, and we chose 12 from those. Some people were too close to what people who are here already do and/or would have added less intellectual diversity, to grab an example. In other words, just because we aren't interviewing someone is not necessarily a reflection on that person's training (or brains, or work, or letters, or whatever). We are looking for the best fit and that is complicated. I certainly did not mean to insult anyone. Print versus conversation is way too fraught with the potential for reinterpretation.
Jeanne Neumann
FWIW, I think Davidson dodged a bullet.
isn't the "archaeology" getting lost in this?
No.
If it gets lost, we can organize a dig to find it again.
See what I did there?
"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you." (Herodotus?)
Just let it go. Move on with your life.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the obvious inside/internal candidate yet. (Quietly ducking out now...)
I certainly did not mean to insult anyone. Print versus conversation is way too fraught with the potential for reinterpretation.
Yeah, this is the thing. Obviously people can make their own call here, but I think that there's not really a way that an institutional representative can communicate on here without creating more trouble than it's worth. People are really, really wrapped up in what you say and, if they haven't been advanced in your process, they have massive personal incentive to cast doubt on its legitimacy or rationality ("I don't understand how you can have come up with a bunch of archaeologists who are also the top experts on Latin literature on the market, but hey, I'm just glad you're being transparent about your weird, irrational, dubious decisions").
I think it's great that SC members want to maximize transparency, and I understand that job-seekers are desperate to know what's going on and have contact with a human being and are almost universally able to be cool. But there is high potential for whatever you say to come back and bite you in the ass.
Don't worry, after the insider comment, I don't think we'll be hearing from her again (unfortunately).
For what it's worth as an anonymous poster, I don't think the SC member's posts are helpful...I second the comments about how they're likely to be received.
SLACs of all ranks love to talk about "fit" and their oh so special needs and how they seek people who are the best or near the best at everything. Reality is often a few steps away from those lofty sentiments.
So what we've decided is, in essence, that anonymous posts containing lies, half truths, empty accusations, whining, and pure ignorance are more "helpful" than posts by SC members? Sorry, I'd rather have information from a named source actually involved in running the process than an extended bitch session about how "those people" are stupid for not giving me an interview/job. I understand that people will tend to misinterpret every little thing written by an SC member, but doesn't that just confirm that the person doing the most complaining probably doesn't belong at the place in question - being incapable of communicating with a colleague, sometimes a senior colleague, is not exactly an asset.
I have absolutely no association with any of the searches being run this season, but I think it's downright classless to criticize anyone who puts their name on this blog and passes along real information about a search that they're running. The implication is that we're free to criticize perceived shortcomings in that particular search, anonymously, but that no named individual should be allowed to come onto our turf and give us actual information or respond to our complaints. Is that really what we want?
What we do with the information given is entirely our own business, but I have to think it's kind of nice to have the "brick wall" mentioned above actually respond to our complaints and pleas for mercy.
Actually, I think it's downright stupid to post named comments on an internet blog when you're running or involved in an active search process that go anywhere beyond the "Here's the timetable" sort of message.
What is this "must be registered with the Placement Service to interview at the APA" thing? That was not the case in my years on the market. Three of my friends on the market have had their registrations "lost" by the Placement Service, causing uncomfortable conversations with schools that want to interview them (and have been told they can't) and much trouble in trying to communicate with the APA (because as we all know, the Placement Service doesn't communicate well) and get the Placement Service to fix things. Some SCs offer alternative arrangements, like a phone interview, to candidates not registered, but we all know this is less desirable than face-to-face.
Other professional organizations - the AHA comes to mind - do not tell schools who they can and cannot interview at the convention. Perhaps this is just an attempt to streamline the process on the APA's part, but it seems pretty dodgy to me.
If anyone can reassure me about this, I'd like to hear about it. My department is waiting for authorization for a search for next year, and we want to be able to interview the candidates we want and not be told what to do.
the Placement Service exercises their chokehold (and stands as a monument to ineffective blundering) only b/c institutions continue to play their game. Candidates can't change the PS, but institutions who are members of the APA could. So, listen up ye who pull strings in the APA and make a change. oh - and the word 'Service' hardly belongs in the equation, b/c there is none.
I am just a lowly job-seeker and while i appreciate any clarity that can be had in this murky process, it looks risky (to me) for a SC chair to name themselves, offer opinions and self-justification, and then reveal internal details about the search they are running. just saying, seems like a liability.
this space also saw the 'someone pretends to be a SC chair' episode not long ago. as ever, FV is a bit dodgy and always has to be treated with skepticism...
As a former SC chair, let me make it quite clear that if we wanted to interview somebody, we would. It's not hard to send an email and arrange an interview. The Placement Service can prevent institutions from using one of the "official" rooms at the conference, but plenty of interviews have taken place in hotel suites, or other unregulated, private places, as we all know. The PS acts as facilitator, not gatekeeper.
thanks to former SC chair for that comment, but many (many) institutions tell us candidates that we must be registered with PS b/c of the use of rooms, the school not having a suite, etc. so I politely disagree that the PS is a not a gatekeeper. and the fact that institutions and candidates pay quite tidy sums to the PS and receive crap in return is pretty unfortunate and is never remedied. even the vaunted new web gimmick is pretty lame.
I think it was quite humane of Prof. Neumann to come here and offer some information. I didn't apply to the Davidson job, so perhaps it is easy for me to offer a comment, but it seems like they can pick whomever they think is the best *for their position.* They don't have to justify a thing. Now, if the job called for a Romanist/Archaeologist, and they ended up hiring a Hellenist/Philosopher, we'd have grounds for bitching. But that would be all we'd have grounds for: bitching. The department and the college advertised fairly and widely, apparently read through the files carefully, and came up with a list to interview. What is so controversial?
isn't it generally viewed as bad form to interview candidates in your private hotel room? not that i like PS (hate it), but i don't want to be sitting on the loveseat while the SC sits on the edge of the bed. been there, done that. don't like it. so if you run the PS blockade, where do you have your interviews? a bar? the lobby? taxi cab?
yes, once had an interview in a tiny hotel room with 4 SC people (from an elite top 10 Classics program), me, and what looked like two days worth of dirty room-service trays. the SC chair was sitting so close to me that his knees repeatedly bumped my own. really uncomfortable. so, while we need something to replace or fix the stupid PS, that model does not work (at least not for this wayfarer) ...
I once had an interview in an Appleby's near the convention hotel. It was quite collegial (I even had a few onion rings and a pepsi) and yet much more intense than the "regular" interviews. It also went way over our 30 minutes, which could be construed as good or bad, I suppose. Didn't get the job, but I still say hello to those who interviewed me.
I love the idea of interviewing in a taxi. Kinda like that show Cash Cab. We'll call it Job Cab! Candidates won't know they are being interviewed until they get in. And we can rotate which institutions run the taxi every few hours. Wander around the streets of Philly, and find out you just scored a fly-out to Davidson when you didn't even apply. Nice
can you win cash prizes in the Job Cab? recoup your losses from the horrendous job search? i would definitely go double or nothing if the game was to identify some passage from Latin lit or identify an ancient monument... it would be delicious for the SC chair to hand over a wad of cash ...
if you take away the cab and the cash, that sounds like PhD orals all over again ... (the horror, the horror) ...
this cab idea has legs - then you could just replace RP and PS with a taxi dispatcher and a bellman, and away we go. plus, spring for some flashy lights ...
Actually, I think it's downright stupid to post named comments on an internet blog when you're running or involved in an active search process that go anywhere beyond the "Here's the timetable" sort of message.
Great. So now some dunderhead has essentially called the Davidson SC chair "stupid," with the only piece of evidence being that she attempted to clarify for some of you the thinking behind what was a perfectly clear job posting to anyone whose dissertation ink is dry by now. (Disclaimer: I did not apply for the Davidson position, since even though I can most certainly bill myself as a Latinist with material culture expertise it was clear that I wasn't a good fit. And I was right.)
If there had been a cab and cash as part of my oral exams that would have totally changed the vibe. Hell no more, let the good times roll!
I bet we can get pseudo-Alex Sens and a pseudo-Jeane Neumann to endorse the Job Cab™ in no time.
My question for Davidson is as follows:
Is participating in a dig or being actively involved in one the only way to show deep work in material culture for your job? Because that is what it sounds like, and that is a rather old fashioned definition of material culture. What about a large number of Classicists whose work largely depends on material culture (ancient historians, art historians, epigraphers, ancient religion scholars, etc) that may not have dig work? Were they considered?
Is participating in a dig or being actively involved in one the only way to show deep work in material culture for your job?
--No, and nothing in our ad said or implied that
What about a large number of Classicists whose work largely depends on material culture (ancient historians, art historians, epigraphers, ancient religion scholars, etc) that may not have dig work? Were they considered?
--yes, absolutely.
Dude, if you don't dig then you aren't an archaeologist.
They want someone who can help with the archaeology concentration, not the look-at-pretty-pictures, or look-at-pretty-carved-letters concentration.
They already have one dig in Cyprus, and are no doubt looking for another dig association, preferably a director. They aren't messing around, have clear expectations, and, quite frankly, few people can really, truly meet those expectations. Fair enough. Move along.
could not agree more with the post by 'Anonymous' at December 16, 2011 12:11 PM.
some dunderhead
It's nice to see someone out there fighting to keep the 1880s alive. But are you sure that the person wasn't more of a "dunce" than a "dunderhead"?
Time stamp comedy:
December 16, 2011 12:11 PM
Anonymous said...
Dude, if you don't dig then you aren't an archaeologist.
They want someone who can help with the archaeology concentration, not the look-at-pretty-pictures, or look-at-pretty-carved-letters concentration.
They already have one dig in Cyprus, and are no doubt looking for another dig association, preferably a director. They aren't messing around, have clear expectations, and, quite frankly, few people can really, truly meet those expectations. Fair enough. Move along.
December 16, 2011 12:09 PM
Jeanne Neumann said...
Is participating in a dig or being actively involved in one the only way to show deep work in material culture for your job?
--No, and nothing in our ad said or implied that
What about a large number of Classicists whose work largely depends on material culture (ancient historians, art historians, epigraphers, ancient religion scholars, etc) that may not have dig work? Were they considered?
--yes, absolutely.
I don't know who to believe! Search committee chair? Or anonymous internet guy?
Ok, look, I also had decided that I was done, but I just have one thing to say. I feel responsible for creating this whole mess with Davidson in the first place. Sure it's easy for me to hide behind a mask of anonymity and speak my mind on here. I never expected anyone to respond, but once she did, I decided to engage in a dialogue. I asked for answers, I got them. Yes, words were misconstrued, but this was all cleared up. It's hard to be stoic when you receive so many rejections and your life is seemingly passing you by without any security or hope for the future. Sometimes I need to vent, and I can't do that with colleagues for obvious reasons. I'm happy that I was able to see into the process for one particular search. Will this help me in the future? I don't know. I never intended for anyone to criticize Prof. Neumann, who has put herself in a difficult situation by appearing on this blog. I'm allowed to be disappointed for not getting an interview. That's my right. If I didn't believe I deserved one, I would quit searching and find another career. But I love what I do - and I'm going to keep trying.
It's hard to be stoic
So the Scaevola pseudonym is ironic?
not that all of this is not fascinating, but a more practical question: does anyone know anything about the search at Florida State?
RE: FSU. Inside source has it that committee is still deciding. Interview requests probably won't go out until at least next week. But hey, I'm anonymous internet guy, so take that as you will.
Anyone have the dish on Dallas, Utah, or Winnipeg?
Dallas told me (in the email noting that they had received my application for the TT position) that they wouldn't be deciding on interviews until mid-late December. You probably got the same one, but I figured I'd pass it on just in case.
Winnipeg takes the prize for the weirdest job ad of the year. They probably won't be interviewing at the APA, and if you're not a Canadian, fuhgeddaboudit.
Re: LMH. Somebody posted on the wiki about a rejection email. Has anyone else received one, or heard anything else?
Paging Colgate? Any updates on that search?
I applied to LMH and haven't had any word. Nothing positive, no rejection e-mail.
Re: the Winnipeg job, the old canard that Canadians only hire Canadians is untrue. Canadian institutions are required to identify the top 3 Canadian applicants and then give reasons for not hiring them (i.e., why they were unsuitable for the job, e.g., not in the specified area, inadequate evidence of publication, insufficient teaching experience, etc.). That's it. C'est tout (as we say up here). But - it is also true that Canadians might be more likely stay at a Canadian institution and not yearn to go home, whether to the US or the UK. So, yes, there can be a preference for the right Canadian if there is good reason to hope that that person will in fact want to come to Canada and will stay in the position (although history proves that Canadians leave Canada for jobs elsewhere too, so there are never guarantees). And if you did a search you would see many recent hires across Canadian Classics who are not Canadian; Classics is just too small a field for this not to be the case. So that's that (although I agree that the Winnipeg job description is weird and must reflect a heavy decanal hand).
any word from Knox college?
Yeah, UWO is definitely interviewing Americans.
Re: Colgate. I spoke to them on the phone today and they said that yesterday was the last day they were accepting applications (bc they started reviewing files on 15 Nov.). In other words, they are only now going to start looking at this stuff for real. When I asked at what point they might be contacting people about interviews, the answer was end of month-ish, beginning of next-ish (although to be fair, I, exasperated, put those words in the secretary's mouth).
beginning of next month-ish? As in, at the APA?
Well, this is how the conversation went towards the end: so, if they haven't yet started reviewing the applications, does this mean that we won't find out until the end of this month, or even beginning of next whether we have an interview?" [TC, surprised/annoyed]. "Myes". "What if I can't make it to the APA, given that it might be a last minute thing?" "That won't disqualify you". So, I suppose I kind of provoked that answer by being pushy, but in reality I think they will let people know before the APA. Hope that helps.
Perhaps they will atone by presenting interviewees with complimentary toothpaste?
The comment about how 7 people have 47 of the interviews reminds me of the story of the person not too many years ago who *accepted* two jobs, and the two schools found out about this only in the summer, when the person finally had to choose.
Ouch. Way to f*** up what was apparently likely to be a great career.
Anyone know anything about the Brown Archaeology job since the literature position made their interview list days ago?
the Joukowsky people do their own thing, so don't expect them to follow the time table or m.o. of the Brown Classics dept.
yes, the Joukowsky job searches tend to follow bizarre arcs in terms of timeline and they are likely to be trying to woo senior folks.
Ouch. Way to f*** up what was apparently likely to be a great career.
I think it is incredibly endearing that you assumed this had to have harmed the person's career. It totally didn't.
Why are people always calling me that? I am a big tough man with lots of smarts re: the streets and life's hard facts.
Has anyone heard from Loyola Maryland? The wiki update from the SC indicates that they were letting people know this week, but there aren't any further updates.
Yes, Loyola invitations were extended this week.
For those who think that Canadian Universities are only interested in Canadian applicants, you might note that not only is UWO apparently interviewing Americans this year, but they hired two of them into TT positions last year.
Wasn't the Latin literature hire at UWO Canadian?
Thank you 12:18.
"Wasn't the Latin literature hire at UWO Canadian?"
No.
As a proud Canadian, I feel I must interject here. It absolutely is the case that Canadians/permanent residents are preferred for jobs at the majority of schools in Canada. Sure, the big schools (UofT, McGill, Western) will hire non-Canadians. But look at the pattern of hiring across Canada over the past 5 years and you will find that overwhelmingly, those schools aside, Canadians are being hired for jobs at most schools (cf. e.g. Dalhousie, Brock, Manitoba, UBC, etc. etc.) No skin off my back: better odds for me! And I;m sure glad I'm not one of the two-dozen or so Toronto graduates on the market this year, either!
Here's a question about Hamilton. The wiki indicates that Hamilton sent out rejection emails on the 15th, but doesn't indicate anything about interview requests. I applied there and have heard nothing in response. Are there other people in the same boat? Could it be that Hamilton has sent out rejections but no requests for interviews?
Regarding Hamilton: I'm in the same boat. Applied, haven't been rejected yet etc. I'm hoping that, like Maryland seems to have done, they just sent their list of interviewees to the APA and an interview will just appear on my home screen. I have a few friends who also applied. One has been rejected, the other also has heard nothing.
FWIW, would be interested to know the specialties of those selected for interviews at Florida State U.
As a proud Canadian, I feel I must interject here.
Nice try. No true Canadian would say or do this.
FWIW, would be interested to know the specialties of those selected for interviews at Florida State U.
I'd say Roman archaeology, as requested in the job ad, but maybe that's not specific enough to answer you satisfactorily.
Anyone hear anything about Utah? Do we think they are planning on interviewing at the APA?
I wish one could auction off one's classics job (even given the broke status of the potential buyers). Given this job market, imagine the profit potential for those of us in tenured/tenure-track classics positions who can't stand our lives if we could just auction off our job to the highest bidder.
I wish one could auction off one's classics job (even given the broke status of the potential buyers). Given this job market, imagine the profit potential for those of us in tenured/tenure-track classics positions who can't stand our lives if we could just auction off our job to the highest bidder.
the jobless encourage you to quit and get out of the way.
Ooh, ooh, I can pay in ramen or sexual favors!
Having been to the APA many times, I have to say that on the whole I think I'd rather receive my payment in ramen.
What if the sexual favors involve ramen?
Nope, I'm not falling for that one again.
What if the sexual favors involve ramen?
OK, I'm listening. I have questions. Cooked or uncooked? If cooked, does the flavor packet go in? If so, which flavor? And if uncooked, does it stay inside the packaging, or not?
Anyone get a sense of how interviews are being scheduled? The interviews that notified me early are on there, and one I just got is on there, but ones in the middle are not. Is it random?
same here! I have two - one that contacted me a bit ago that is nowhere on my schedule and then a new one that is on there right away. Did I make the first one up?
I'm getting worried about the scheduling. None of mine are showing up. Some notified me weeks ago, some just this week. Is there anyone who has no interviews showing?
my interviews are not appearing / have not appeared
Thanks 12:48. I know that I shouldn't be worried and that they'll eventually show, but I wasn't able to ward off the paranoia.
It would probably never occur to some whiners...both candidates and search committee members...to THANK the PS staff for what they do, which is a lot harder and more involved than someone thinks who sits at their computer completely consumed by only their own situation.
It would never occur because it's a paid service, and they do a terrible job. If it were free, and/or they did it well, we'd all be grateful for that fact.
why should anyone be grateful for a "service" that charges a fee and then does terrible work, year upon year? who would be thankful for that? i personally know minimum-wage earners who do scheduling for a living - and it is not difficult. cry me a river, oh you PS sympathizers. you're part of the (sad) reason it never changes.
It would probably never occur to some whiners...both candidates and search committee members...to THANK the PS staff for what they do, which is a lot harder and more involved than someone thinks who sits at their computer completely consumed by only their own situation.
The placement service has always been a complete shit-show fail parade, because it's a monopoly with no incentive to provide good customer service or value for money. (Reminds me of this old Lily Tomlin bit.) What's more, it is now a monopoly whose chief function has now been made basically obsolete by technology.
To Anon 12:48 et al.:
At least you have interviews that are failing to appear...
And you don't spend your time angry that the Placement Service defender cannot arrange agreement ("someone...their") in the style of most undergraduates.
The lameness and misery of it all. Is someone still planning on auctioning off jobs?
And you don't spend your time angry that the Placement Service defender cannot arrange agreement ("someone...their") in the style of most undergraduates.
Not the defender, but we have been doing this in colloquial English for hundreds of years now. Do you really go around saying "her or his" all the time? And if you do, don't you get tired of people throwing things at you and yelling at you to go away?
Isn't it obvious that the complaint about number agreement was self-deprecatory and illustrating the lame rot at the core of this classicist?
Geesh. Cannot even mock myself without someone piling on. I am braking up with the interweb.
breaking. not braking. hmmmm.
Dear Commentators,
Please remember that the "no names" policy includes private individuals who themselves are neither candidates nor SC members themselves. If you want to protest how individuals are doing their job, please write a letter to the APA. We appreciate the need to vent about the APA Placement Service. Please refrain from attacking people by name, however, while doing so.
Comments making use of individuals' names/initials are being deleted. Please avoid this in the future in order to prevent thread mutilation.
Cheers,
Servius
So obviously we must in future refer to said APA employee as "she who must not be named." Or we could just start calling her Voldemort.
This is the fault of you fuckers who are obsessed with ramen. Stop it. It's just ramen; it's not that great.
Servius:
The practice of referring to the individual in question by name or initials has been going on for quite some time, years, if I'm not mistaken. Why the change now?
So obviously we must in future refer to said APA employee as "she who must not be named." Or we could just start calling her Voldemort.
Yes, obviously the policy has its limits. Perhaps it would be better to abide by the spirit rather than the letter of the law?
The practice of referring to the individual in question by name or initials has been going on for quite some time, years, if I'm not mistaken. Why the change now?
Yes, and we felt that we had to delete a large number of such references last year. Before that we weren't in this position, so you'd have to take up the issue of long-term consistency with previous mods. It seems that the outlines are clear, difficult as they may be to put into practice with absolute consistency.
All of this editorial authorization may seem crude, and downright ineffective in the face of figured speech, but feel free to explore the job boards for other disciplines in order to get a sense of the alternatives. It is ugly.
If we worried more about fixing a serious problem that has gone on for far too long and less about the use of two letters, we might be on the road to improvement.
If we worried more about fixing a serious problem that has gone on for far too long and less about the use of two letters, we might be on the road to improvement.
Agreed. Our guess - and it is just that - is that the institution would be more likely to enact real change if it weren't given a reason to circle the wagons around what it might perceive as unfair, public attacks on an individual within the institution.
This is a place to complain in general terms, and about structures and institutions. More pointed, personal complaints need proper addresses attached to them, and those addresses lie elsewhere.
hey, Servius. the "institution" of which you speak knows not change. and will not. make all the excuses you want. for all we know, you are the APA administrator(s).
Servius:
You are correct about other disciplines' job blogs.
However, my understanding was that FV's rule had a very limited exception with respect to one person (or perhaps two) because, given their offices, it was not possible to discuss them or their actions in general, non-specific terms.
6:50
hey, Servius. the "institution" of which you speak knows not change. and will not. make all the excuses you want. for all we know, you are the APA administrator(s).
And we would have gotten away with this, too, if not for you meddling kids! *^)
However, my understanding was that FV's rule had a very limited exception with respect to one person (or perhaps two) because, given their offices, it was not possible to discuss them or their actions in general, non-specific terms.
Hmmmm. That may be the case. We'll have to ask our predecessors. But after some discussion last night we decided to err on the side of caution with respect to naming.
You are correct about other disciplines' job blogs.
Yes, and all of those are examples of roads we don't wish to take. Thus what might look like a heavy-handed response.
I have a couple of off topic questions that have little to do with the searching at hand, so I apologize for not using this space to contribute to the bilious snark.
1) I wrote my dissertation in latex (talk about your sexy dissertations!)and now that I'm looking to revise for publication I'm wondering if press editors have issues with this format? Anyone have experience in this area? I really hate the thought of reverting so much work to M$word.
2) How common is it that someone might manage a book contract but never gets a TT job? Just wondering.
Thanks.
CUP, for one, is happy to take in ms. prepared in latex, in my experience.
Any press worthy of the name will prefer LaTex to almost anything else.
Occupy Placement Sevice!
I am trying to determine why I have so few interviews this applications season, in order to determine whether it's time to throw in the towel.
How much difference did it make that I did not have my dissertation finished when applying for jobs? I will have it defended by February; so if committees read my full letter, they would have known that I will definitely finish it this academic year. Am I being paranoid, or is it likely that a lot of committees never really considered by file because I am ABD?
No matter the answer to this question, there are obviously a ton of other factors at play. My question is whether I can rule out this factor as actually relevant. Any insight (especially from people on search committees this year or ABD's who have interviews) would be greatly appreciated.
If you have ANY interviews as an ABD then I'd say you're ahead of the game. I have a PhD in hand and no interviews for TT jobs (and am a VAP right now), to put it into perspective. Question is, should *I* throw in the towel?
I am ABD, with a dissertation certainly done next semester, and have two interviews thus far. However hard it is to silence that voice in your head, take heart and be patient. It will happen.
I had two interviews ABD last year. This year I have six so I don't know if it's that I finished or produced some publications in the meantime that made the difference. I'm convinced that a lot of schools do not consider ABDs in this economic climate where it's a buyer's market.
I have heard that some ABDs are getting interviews, and some PhDs without publications are getting interviews, but virtually no ABDs without publications are being interviewed.
Anon 1:12 here... True. I am ABD but have 5 publications and significant field work and teaching experience. I think that the idea is variety of experience, not necessarily time to completion.
I'm ABD (will certainly defend in early spring), I have one interview, and I feel pretty lucky to have landed it. (I have a couple of applications where the jury is still out, but I'm not holding my breath.) For one thing, I think a dissertation chapter when the work as a whole is still in progress is not the strongest writing sample. I think that's one of several factors not working in my favor. I'm hoping that by next year I'll have something more polished. (What kind of employment woes I may go through in the mean time is another issue.)
I believe that many committees will not consider ABDs unless you have a letter from someone that they trust willing to swear on a stack of bibles that you'll finish. You are a risk that they don't need to take, when every school has a story of a hired ABD who turned out not to be all that close to finishing, which of course puts you behind in the tenure process and imperils the position.
It's also a hirer's market this year. There are a good number of jobs, but a vast number of applicants who might have gotten tenure-track jobs in 2009, 2010, or 2011 were it not for the economy.
And so committees can, and some do, thin their applications by weeding out anyone without a Ph.D. in hand. Then they still have a plentiful pile of excellent candidates, and they don't have to worry whether their hire will in fact defend in time.
@Anon. 12/17, 12:15 pm
Interview requests from FSU came on 12/17 by email. I am a Roman archaeologist working on North African material. I am associated with a field project that is not actively working at the moment (our permit was in limbo even before the Jasmine Revolution), but I do have field experience.
And for the record, I was extremely surprised to be asked. This is my first year on the market and I know there are many other candidates more senior and more experienced than I.
As to the ABD question:
I am ABD, and have multiple interviews. Every time I have gotten a request my spouse has had to reel me back down from the ceiling where I'm floating on Cloud 9 and stick me back in front of my dissertation until dinner.
I have several publications and teaching experience in both language and civ. The places where I'm getting interviews are for the most part the ones where I thought I'd fit, not the long shot ones where I thought "they'll never hire me but I'll send something anyway because you never know."
I feel extremely fortunate to have interviews and am just trying to prevent myself from looking at houses and preschools in those locations online (yes, I'm an eternal optimist and a first-timer, snark away).
Is there a limited returns point, or clearly demarcated "give up" spot, on the Classics job market. I was 0-fer ABD w/ two publications last year, and O-fer this year with degree in hand and Visiting position (submitted an article 7 months ago, but no response as of yet)... and still 0-fer. If it is a "not enough pubs" thing, it may be worth sticking around, but if it is something else that is holding me back than it may be best to simply cut my losses.
Cut your losses. There are too many people who use a year in a visiting and get more done than that...and the market is saturated.
We're all really at the limited returns / "give up" spot just by being in the Classics job market. But hope springs eternal.
But, if we "give up," what then? What exactly can we do with PhD's in classics?
If you're one of the lucky ones who can talk to other people, there's always the food service industry.
The traditional alternate career is giving tug jobs down by the docks. If your city is not located on a major body of water, I'm not sure where you would set up shop. Bus station, maybe.
Sam/Susie Ph.D. sells hand jobs down by the seashore?
"And for the record, I was extremely surprised to be asked. This is my first year on the market and I know there are many other candidates more senior and more experienced than I."
You wouldn't be so surprised if you knew the dynamics of the department in questions. Think UT lite. You seem to fit the historical target demographic well.
so we're saying the dept in question prefers a younger person who is easily bossed about? that's not cool.
Ding, ding, ding. Someone buy our contestant a cigar.
for a cool $100K, they could boss me around. oh, wait, they pay much less than that ... forget it.
Anon 9:26: hahahahahaha. Wow, trying for a twofer smackdown, eh? That was hilarious because you really can't know much if you are equating those two places. Your ignorance is stunning, even for this forum.
to the earlier poster, congrats on the interview. go knock it out of the park and try to ignore what the dipstick above said. Better yet, you can judge for yourself when you talk to faculty.
For what it is worth, since this is something I didn't realize early on in my years on the market, the best way to find out about any department short of being part of it is 1. meet and talk to the people who are there and, well, no, that's the end of the list. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors. Including any douchebag invective from Dr. "heard something from a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy" Dipstick ((or is it, more likely, Mr. or Ms.?)
(I'm sorry, couldn't resist. Just joshing you anon 9:26. Though I'm still serious about your spectacular ignorance of the department and individuals about which you speak. And let's not kid ourselves. You are attacking individuals. That is way not cool, not least of all because, again, you are so incredibly ignorant. and smelly. Yes, indeed, anon 9:26 smells like feet. See how easy that is to insult people anonymously? Henceforth anon 9:26 will be known on these boards as smelly-footed Achilles for his swift, yet smelly, rush to impugn the reputation of any department that dare be mentioned on this field.)
I have no dog in this fight, but I just wanted to nominate Archilochus' comment for best comment of the year. It's all there: piles of cliches, desperate sweaty failed attempts at humor, bizarre midway course reversal ("just joshing"—about what?!? where?!?) immediately re-reversed (I think?), and the least imaginative insult you will ever find.
I know it's just a comment, but I think it's important to recognize excellence wherever it arises.
I'm with 1:48 AM on this one. Besides, Archilochus really could have done better than "smelly-footed Achilles". Come on, dude - Philoctetes was the obvious choice. Novice level Classics insult. And this is coming from an oversexed, overworked, ignorant archaeologist.
This is eerily reminiscent of the SFSU hullabaloo from a couple months ago.
So the best way to find out about a department is by "talking" to them for 30 minutes in an inquisitorial style setting where they hold all the cards? Yeah, that makes sense. SC members, remember to take your meds before embarrassing yourself on FV.
^Nailed it in one!
Let's start a pool for one of the superstars with twenty interviews if they ask the FSU search committee, "I heard you guys are a bunch of wannabe UT sabretooths? Why DID the last position holder not get tenure when the department is largely populated by senior faculty? What's your tenure rate? Why do junior faculty who can seem to leave? Is it because Tallytown is smelly?"
C'mon, folks, we can surely raise $5000 by January!
Thanks do ask, do tell. That's the sort of specific information I was looking for. Confirmed what I thought was the issue here.
Anon 1:48 and 9:34 nailed it. The SFSU thing was the inspiration and 1:48 cataloged most of the tropes. The smelly insult is lame, but I liked how ridiculous it was with the pseudo-scholarly contrast of Homer and Archilochus. You didn't mention my overblown concern for job candidates or the equally lame insult of dipstick.
I'm afraid I'm not a medicated SC member. I was going for concerned friend, but figured if I left it unstated than you all would assume and pile on as you tend to do. Wish I was on the SC though; looks like it might be interesting. Smoke and mirrors, people. And "Archilochus"? Really, is that guy NOT going to be full of crap?
Props to Roanoke College for providing interviewees with some meaty information long in advance of the interview. Now, if the flipping placement service would only tell me when that interview would be...
seriously, the PS is a fail. even with their web gimmick. we know that the servius overlord will remove names, so this is a shout-out en masse to all elected APA and AIA officials - dude, fix the PS or kill it. simple enough for ya?
You are a sly one, Archilochus, with your various misdirections. I'm scared for the lucky devil who gets the job at FSU.
don't be eager to know your interview schedule, folks. not like the PS has a web scheduling tool to streamline the process ... I want a refund. oh, and way to go with continuing to post expired job ads on the protected site. so useful.
Did everyone that applied receive a confirmation from the University of Dallas? The wiki says that they did send confirmation. I send mine via interfolio but never received confirmation . . .
A friend and I both applied and received email confirmation, but we both sent ours in directly via email.
So who's looking forward to explaining the academic job search process to family over and over again for the next two weeks?
Anyone know anything about Loyola Marymount's search? It's been a while and haven't heard anything.
Check your e-mail, guys. Wow. Just...wow. :^0
do tell?
What? You weren't soothed by the many smiley faces? I mean, she even added noses! What more do you want than noses!
For those of you unregistered with the placement service, the following is from the email sent out today:
"Ho Ho Ho!
Happy Holidays to all!
A good number of you have been writing to me, informing me that one institution or another has contacted you, stating that they plan to interview you at the convention! That's AWESOME! Congratulations!
This great news now brings up a few questions: so where's that interview on my calendar???? Did you forget me??? Was this a mistake???
PLEASE DO NOT PANIC! :o)
I have been doing nothing but scheduling interviews! It is far easier/faster for a college to send off a quick email to give you the heads up than it is for me to schedule the appointments. Because we are now online, I no longer have my "kitchen help." Things that I was able to pass off to Ms. XXXX and XXXXXX now have to be done by one person (me) simply because we don't have 3 computers in the kitchen.
So, that being said, PLEASE DO NOT write to me to say/ask "so and so wants to see me, where's this interview on my calendar." Rome was not built in a day. I have 2 weeks left to complete this humongous task, brick by brick, scheduling one interview appointment at a time. If you don't see that appointment today, RELAX! Check back in a couple of days. I still have PLENTY of appointments to schedule, and really, no time to reply to individual inquiries. That appointment WILL show up eventually!
Thank you in advance for your patience and understanding. Now I have a few (hundred) more appointments to schedule. :o)"
yeah, that is pretty special. tell the ardent defenders of the silly PS to stick that in their pipe and smoke it. pathetic.
Jesus fucking christ. Scheduling software. My apologies to the religious crowd, but it appears only JC can bring sense to the madness that is the placement service.
I suspect that in most any other kind of work, an offensive email like that would get someone on probation, fired, reprimanded, replaced, something'd. But not at the APA.
Through this whole process, I haven't understood why Classics can't do what English does for MLA: search chairs or dept admins call/email candidates and ask for an interview, offering a range of times; candidates pick; much fun is had by all. Candidates don't pay for a "service" that the vast majority of you appear (justly!) to hate, and SCs aren't left hanging wondering whether/hoping that their interviews actually get scheduled. In other words, if it's any consolation to you guys, I suspect a lot of SCs are like mine: just as annoyed by the Placement Service as you are.
If a student had written something like that, we'd have to have a conversation about the appropriate way to write a professional e-mail. Luckily my students don't typically do that.
Because the PS doesn't have time to do it's job properly, but it certainly does have time to harangue depts that don't play by its rules.
its even. Sorry, this latest salvo really takes the cake.
Absolutely astounding. The APA finally forces on the Placement Service scheduling software so that the scheduling process will not take weeks and weeks, and here we are being told that the scheduling process will take weeks and weeks. Doesn't this software have a button (or menu option) that automatically matches up search committee and candidate? If not, the software should be improved; if so, one wonders why that button isn't being pressed. Is there a legitimate reason, or is this all being done manually as busy work?
If anyone wants to raise this issue at a higher level, these are the people on the committee overseeing the Placement Service:
Erich Gruen (2009-2012), Chair
Michael Lippman (2010-2013)
Ilaria Marchesi (2010-2013)
David S. Potter (2011-2014)
Pamela Vaughn (2011-2014)
Joy Connolly, ex officio
Barbara Barletta (2009-2012)
Betsey Robinson (2010-2013)
I have had a feeling all along that "scheduling software" was not "software that does scheduling" but rather "software that you type your schedule into after you've worked it out with pen and paper the way you've always done."
I'm pretty sure that this whole thing could be done for free using something like this.
with a few simple linked tables and some queries, this problem would be solvable in much less time than the email claims is necessary. and the issue is not about having multiple computers or multiple people in your kitchen.
Still no word on LMH? I wasn't one of those to receive a rejection last week, but neither have I heard anything positive.
Things that I was able to pass off to Ms. XXXX and XXXXXX now have to be done by one person (me) simply because we don't have 3 computers in the kitchen.
Yep, that's how computer machines work. You gotta have at least three of them and they all have to be in the same room, preferably at your house. If you don't have that many or they're in different rooms, it makes things go really slow.
I have 2 weeks left to complete this humongous task, brick by brick, scheduling one interview appointment at a time.
Ordinarily I would assume that these bricks are metaphorical, but I kind of suspect that somewhere in a Pennsylvania kitchen there is right now slowly rising an actual brick structure that has something to do with scheduling APA interviews.
I'm thinking here that either what the APA has acquired is not actual scheduling software or the person or persons responsible for administering the software do not know how to use it properly.
If this blog brings about one, simple change, it will forever more be considered a smashing success. Please, Erich Gruen et al., make it so. Please. We beg you.
As if the job market isn't enough of an ego smashing scouring of souls, now I have to get emails from a "professional" (and I only use that term because I pay for it) placement service that looks like my 11 year old niece wrote it.
I do want to say something that is not really a defense of the annual clown show but I hope will help people dial back the distress a little bit.
Traditionally the PS has been incredibly slow and has caused inconvenience, unnecessary expense, anxiety, and frustration. These qualities are their hallmark, you might say. Also they kind of treat you like shit. However, so far as I know, they don't actually fuck up the interviews themselves—that is, no institution will request an interview with a candidate and not get one. So I'm sure she's right: you will hear about your interview, eventually, and you shouldn't panic.
Again, not endorsing the shitty system, just saying that there has always been a floor to how shitty it is.
I'm sorry, but I fail to see what is so offensive about that e-mail. Yes, there may have been a plethora of emotica, and yes, the tone was very familiar. Those of you who have been on the market before may recall the "dog track" e-mail that cheered us all during the Thanksgiving season; there is no question in my mind that that e-mail crossed a line. I cannot, however, see what it is about this latest missive that is causing such mental anguish for so many folks. By contrast with the e-mail I have just mentioned, in which we were all mocked for our failure to compensate for an error made by the PS, this email seems like a perfectly reasonable, if hyperbolically phrased, request for all of the neurotic people, who somehow feel that a little orange placeholder on an electronic screen guarantees them an interview when a direct communication from the SC chair does not, take a chill pill and stop clogging the sender's inbox. Honestly, how many of you have ever sent a similar mass e-mail to an entire lecture section because they were getting too many neurotic repetitions of the same idiotic question to answer individually?
Honestly, how many of you have ever sent a similar mass e-mail to an entire lecture section because they were getting too many neurotic repetitions of the same idiotic question to answer individually?
I assume that it's the combination of feeling patronized (I think it's telling that your analogy is the teacher-student relationship), the fact that the writer is complaining about how monumentally difficult her job is to people who have paid for her to do it, and the fact that the reason for the monumental difficulty—that the entire thing is being done on clay tablets in cuneiform—is a completely illegitimate one.
I mean, Jesus, you usually get better service if you call the cable company or your bank, and that's saying something.
As we are wont to say in the UK: that email takes the piss.
The attitude of the email is nothing new. It can be summed up as, "You ungrateful brats. You're spoiled, entitled whiners who should be grateful I do this for you. Welcome to the real world, where your privileged PhD in an obscure field counts for next to nothing. Suck it up. You'll get your interview, no matter how slow this operation, and there's nothing you can do about this process or how its conducted."
Any word on University of Dallas out there?
I don't know about that. Honestly, I think that e-mail is way too incoherent to get an "attitude" from it.
Anyone with an interview for the non-history Cincinnati job care to share their specialty? I assume it's mostly Latinists, but I'm still curious.
I won't share my exact specialty for fear of giving myself away (scandal!), but I'm definitely a Hellenist.
Anything new from Brown (the archaeology job)?
I know several Latinists interviewing for Cincinnati.
"Anything new from Brown (the archaeology job)?"
If you have to ask..
"Anything new from Brown (the archaeology job)?"
If you have to ask..
I know that I won´t get the job..just curious what kind of people they are interviewing.
don't assume that Chalcock will interview anyone, esp. at the AIA meetings.
Anybody hear back from App State or Memphis? Any campus visits?
While we wait for the jobs you mention to show up on wiki, here's a fun game we can play: who has the highest candidate number with the Placement Service?
I lose automatically, because my number is low, but it would be interesting to get a sense of how many people registered. It would be a nice follow-up to our argument at the beginning of the thread. If you don't want to give your exact number, give a range: e.g. mine is in the single digits.
upper 480s ...
"Upper 480s..."
Holy shit.
I guess Dr. Sunshine and Lollipops (aka August 28, 2011 1:00 am) was correct.
At least I'm not the only one who was wrong:
"But in 2003-4, there were 362 candidates registered with the placement service; I find hard to believe there will be more for the 2011-12 job cycle. Surely the past few years of brutal job prospects has thinned the herd, so to speak, as the wiser among us pursue other careers."
I'm interested to see how many TT positions actually get filled by people who have ever held one before. If it's less than 25, I'm jumping off the Bay Bridge.
*never*
"I'm jumping off the Bay Bridge."
You and me both. Maybe we can arrange a carpool?
At least jump off the Golden Gate ... it's purtier.
The Golden Gate's too good for us.
I'm not jumping just yet. I applied for every possible job, even the senior ones. And those are still in play according to the wiki, so there is hope!
I'm jumping off the Bay Bridge
So, is the plan to experience rejection and then wait around indefinitely on the chance that someone will eventually install a pedestrian walkway on the bridge?
Now, if you want to get run over on a bridge, that's a different story: the Bay Bridge would be great!
The way I see it, this is the last straw. We need to rise up and demand our rights. First, everyone who registers for the placement service should be guaranteed an interview. Not an interview for every position, but for at least one position. This shouldn't be too hard to arrange. Second, there should be a system for voting on campus interviews. Every institution should have to make public whom it has invited to campus, and if the applicants don't agree with that list there should be a vote of the other applicants on what other candidates should be invited, and the final list should be a combination of the original list and the subsequent poll. Third, if the person eventually hired does not meet with the approval of the original applicants there should be a poll about whether to censure that institution. I realize it wouldn't be possible to overrule an institution's decision, but there should be consequences, probably in the form of a list published on the internet with black marks against institutions that chose badly. This would be an excellent way to restore some fairness and democracy to the system. And right now when everything is in chaos is the best time to push for change. Some will say that this infringes on the right of the institutions to make what decisions they feel are in their best interests, but if there is one thing that has been proven over and over again it is that institutions do not know how to make decisions in their own best interest and that they instead pick almost randomly, perhaps even with a bias towards the worse candidate. If they can't manage it themselves, the only right way is to add an element of crowdsourcing to the whole thing. Perhaps we can help save the colleges and universities from themselves.
I hereby call on all of the current and future elected officials of the AIA/APA to work out the details of and implement this blueprint. I know it seems extreme, but it is the last chance for classics.
I'll see that 480 and raise you 30, or thereabouts.
More Spartans died at Themopylae, if it is any consolation.
"So, is the plan to experience rejection and then wait around indefinitely on the chance that someone will eventually install a pedestrian walkway on the bridge?"
We've already decided that we're carpooling. You are a slow one, eh?
"I'm not jumping just yet. I applied for every possible job, even the senior ones. And those are still in play according to the wiki, so there is hope!"
Damn it, I knew I should have applied for at least one of those. They probably wouldn't acknowledge my pitiful attempt with a rejection letter and I, too, could have held out hope. I truly am a probie in a world where even veterans are roadkill.
Why no love for the Richmond bridge? San Mateo? Dumbarton? C'mon people, if we all only apply to T1 research bridges, it's gonna be a clusterfuck come d-day....
Does anybody have a sense of what % of people with Classics PhDs from, say, 2001 to now actually have tt positions?
to achieve any result with integrity you'd first need to know how many PhDs are in the sample and then how many of them chose to pursue an academic t-t career. i don't think anyone tracks this data, tho it would be useful.
I was responsible for the optimism just cited and, if candidate numbers really go into the 500s, I'm not ashamed to admit that I was wrong. I was also, I admit, overly optimistic about my own prospects; there were certainly a number of positions where I thought I had very good chance of getting an interview but didn't. Even if overall demand is up slightly (and even if there are more T-T jobs this year, as it seems), supply of PhDs has increased at a faster pace and it remains a buyers' market.
There's a bit more complexity here, however, when you consider the number of applicants jobs have been getting, as cited in rejection letters. For instance:
Hamilton (1 year VAP): ca. 130
SFSU (T-T Open Field): ca. 200
Boston College (T-T Latin Lit.): 127
These numbers are high, no question, but not incredibly so. Nor do I think many legitimate, qualified candidates would refuse to apply to these schools. So I surmise that are around 200-250 philologists out there looking for a T-T job, and maybe 130-150 of those are Latinists. The Hamilton number, however, is scary -- fully half or maybe more than half of this total group are not in continuing or permanent positions. But in any case, who are the other 250 candidates? Archeologists, et al.? Or mostly people who are applying to 1-2 select positions? I would be interested to know, if the APA ever got around to updating their statistics.
Have any schools other than the three mentioned by Silenus provided numbers of applicants? If so, we should post everything. If any SC members could provide info, even anonymously, that would help. Maybe leave those numbers on the wiki?
Wow, interesting. We got way fewer (not quite 100) apps for a TT Latin job with a 2-2 teaching load. Perhaps there is a geographical bias in choosing where to apply?
I would caution against making any strong conclusions when Hamilton and SFSU comprise the bulk of the data. As this very website outlines in gory details, both positions have a history of baggage that precludes them from representing a typical VAP and open field junior position.
I would caution against making any strong conclusions when Hamilton and SFSU comprise the bulk of the data.
Those are the kinds of things that would make you think about whether to accept the job if offered it, not the kind that would prevent you from putting in an application in the first place.
Not exactly. For example, if your graduate department expects you to accept the first job that is offered to you, you might apply selectively.
If you're one of the hated ones looking to upgrade through a lateral move, you might avoid applying if you suspect you're leaving one shitfest to enter a bigger one.
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