**New**
Following a request in the main 2017/2018 comments section, we're opening a new section of FV: a space for our community to discuss career paths beyond the 'traditional' post-secondary academic job market.
We hope this provides a forum for interaction between people pondering their wider career options and those who have already transitioned to such positions.
37 comments:
Does anyone know someone with a PhD in classics, ancient history, or classical archaeology who now works in finance and would be willing to do an informational interview over phone, Skype, or e-mail? (Or just discuss their experience here.) I am especially interested in hearing about how someone landed their first job in finance, how they pitched their skills to prospective employers, what (if any) learning they did formally or informally to prepare for the move, etc.
I second this comment. I am interested in finance, but am unsure what kinds of positions for which we are suited. While I have deep analytical/research/teaching skills, they are not quantitative. Thanks.
I'd love to hear from anyone (finance or otherwise) who has managed to negotiate a position that's above entry level. How do you get past the 5-7 experience that seems to be a requirement for every well-paid position?
Would be interested to hear from someone re: finance, or from someone re: working in administration / other university offices (Strategic Planning, Study Abroad, etc.)
A few things to share.
First, many government jobs seek people with the analytical and critical-thinking skills that PhDs in the humanities have spent years honing.
On this front, take a look at opportunities with the CIA and FBI. There are, surprisingly, a great deal of well-paying (59-89k/year) jobs right now with the CIA. Worth taking a look at,
Second, peruse this very informative site courtesy of Columbia:
https://www.careereducation.columbia.edu/resources/non-academic-career-options-phds-humanities-and-social-sciences
Servii, is it permissible to list by name people out there in the world who have classics background but are now holding down other kinds of jobs? Many/most of them would otherwise have no connection to FV at all, many probably don't know it exists.
If the SCS wanted to get really radical, it could (as WCC has to some extent done) create a db of people no longer 'in' classics who are willing to speak to their experiences.
Re (I'm sensing a trend) finance, you're gonna have a very hard time breaking in UNLESS you have connections either personally or through your school (i.e., go to Ivy or near-Ivy, and by this I mean near-Ivy in the wider world, not in Classics world). This is because hiring for entry-level positions is usually done through recruitment at top schools. I'm sure it has been done though. Some possible objections that you might want to think of responses for:
1.) You don't have any quantitative chops,
2.) You don't have any reason to want to go into finance other than prestige and $$$,
3.) You're not going to be able to deal with the hours as a "professional student."
All of these can be overcome, but it will take some thought and preparation to do so.
Check out the Paideia Institute's Legion Project, which lists people with backgrounds in Classics who are not working in academia. Keep in mind, however, that they are (almost?) all white and mostly men. If you know people who would be good candidates for this project who are not necessarily white or men, please nominate them! The process is super easy.
http://www.paideiainstitute.org/legion
Servius here-- @11:19, good question. Give us a little bit of time to discuss this, we'll get back to everyone.
Over the last year Eidolon has published a series of essays about teaching in schools. The latest came out today: https://eidolon.pub/what-college-instructors-can-learn-from-the-front-lines-of-classics-education-4f14943a238b
I'm not in finance but I do have a PhD in Classics and an MBA and I would echo what @1:23pm said. Breaking into finance isn't necessarily the easiest thing do for someone from the humanities side. If you don't already know someone in the field, I would recommend getting on LinkedIn. While our field may not use it very much for networking, the business world uses it a lot. Search for people in companies that you are interested in that might have gone to the same school (either undergrad or grad) or to whom you are linked and then reach out. And when you do reach out, be sure to have a real reason why you are interested in what they do that isn't "I haven't gotten a job in my field and finance is very lucrative."
The other thing I would mention is that you will be underestimated. While I was taking classes in business school it was clear that both professors and my fellow students didn't think that I would be up to the quantitative analysis portion of the workload. I proved them all wrong, as will you, but if you are very serious and genuinely interested in finance (and not just looking for a lucrative career change), then I would start familiarizing yourself with the basic lingo and learn how to read a set of financial statements. Training the street is a good place to start (http://trainingthestreet.com/). Also scroll down on this NYU Stern page for some primers on statistics,
financial statements, and time value of money(http://www.stern.nyu.edu/programs-admissions/online-certificate-courses/online-corporate-finance-course). Also if you don't already know how to use excel at a pretty high level, LEARN! You can find free training videos all over the interwebs.
Finally, back to the whole finance career shift thing. Part of the reason I got an MBA was to be able to change careers from the humanities to management consulting or finance because I had an unemployed spouse and my salary was not covering all the bills. I quickly realized that while I would be able to excel in either of those professions, I would not have enjoyed either one. The former because of the extensive travel involved (I have a young kid) and the latter because of the profit-driven mania and overall culture of finance. Of course, if you have a genuine interest in finance, then ignore everything I've said, but if you're simply looking for something more lucrative than Classics, perhaps talk to a career counselor or reach out on LinkedIn to a corporate recruiter to learn about jobs that are well-paid but not necessarily a traditional financial analyst position. They exist, I swear!
Also FWIW, my partner also has a PhD in the humanities and wasn't able to find a job in his field. He ended up making the switch to software development. He loves his job and he is excelling at it, in large part due to the skills he gained while getting his PhD. But this was after several years of heartbreaking and truly depressing unemployment.
Good luck to you all!
I don't know much about finance, but I'm a Phd drop out who is making a really good living as a secondary teacher. Hit me up if you want to know about the alt cert route!
Anyone have advice on getting into consulting? I'm still unclear what consulting is...
10:06 am, ah, maybe you're rich? or have unusual resources? I checked out the cost of an MBA at one point and was staggered by the tuition: made a PhD seem bargain-basement.
I have acquaintances who've managed MBAs in some of the online-only, overseas programs, but once they were out their degrees carried little clout (which didn't surprise me, but did surprise them).
Any thoughts on how one might actually afford an MBA would be welcome. I agree the real ones do open doors, and they don't take forever to get, but golly they are expensive.
I could use some real-world advice on getting a good paying job that doesn't involve accruing more debt...MBAs and such just aren't possible.
"I could use some real-world advice on getting a good paying job that doesn't involve accruing more debt."
Do you have any work experience that isn't Ph.D.-related? If not, you will probably only be competitive at entry level positions. All that time we spent living the life of the mind, our peers spent padding a resume.
Look for things that deal with language. Marketing, for instance. Being a paralegal is another pretty consistent job that needs no further training. Get your foot in the door and gain experience to move up.
The salary/benefits combo for even entry level jobs in these areas, while not great, is usually much better than an adjunct/VAP.
Could I inquire: are people more interested in hearing about why and how others left for a different line of work (where lines of work might include a range of industries), or in hearing about specific lines of work that might be interesting to pursue?
@9:48, I suspect the latter. People have all manner of reasons for leaving for a different line of work, and it's a very personal decision (or in some cases, not even a decision). What I would find most useful is what's possible and how one can go about doing it.
People who work on the outside: I have a pretty good idea of what my ideal job would be, but not what titles/industries I should be looking in. Basically, I would like to write lit reviews/backgrounders where I read and summarize a lot of information. I'm not picky about industry, topic, size of company... I just want to read for a living. When I've spoken to career counselors, they suggest "qualitative research", but that seems to be market research like surveys and nothing else. Does the job I want not exist?
9:48 here. 3:58, it's been a long time since I checked, but my impression is that the federal government has positions such as you describe, notably in the CIA/NSA/FBI zone, where much analysis goes on. Seeking a govt. job just now may have its unusual pitfalls, but it might be worth checking. Possibly some of the larger states have analogous jobs? Until about 405 days ago I would have also suggested the State Dept., but not just at the moment.
This new ACLS fellowship could be of interest: http://www.acls.org/programs/publicfellowscomp/
What kind of career do you want -- what are your skills:
http://assessment.com/
https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/analyze-your-career-with-a-swot
https://www.wikihow.com/Analyze-Your-Skills-and-Job-Options
There are many sites that do ^--this directly or indirectly -- Google is your friend.
Books to help you think about your skills -- most famous is "What Color is Your Parachute" (listed in this link), but see also "Zen and the Art of Making a Living" and "Career Match" (2nd link below)
https://www.themuse.com/advice/8-brilliant-books-that-will-lead-you-to-your-dream-job#!
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/117364.Career_Match
Thinking about leaving academia:
https://chroniclevitae.com/news/434-leaving-academia-it-s-time-to-have-the-talk
https://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/blog/2013/nov/22/leaving-academia-life-beyond-university
Again, see Google, passim.
Many people seem to value Karen Kelsky's comments in the Chronicle, but her comments in areas where I specialize invariably miss the mark. So, not sure if that's true across the board, or just in my neighborhood. Caveat lector. Well, caveat lector for all these sites, yo.
What kind of person are you? Personality type? What do you like, not like, tolerate?
There are a fair number of personality tests that purport to test for this. The most famous is maybe the Myers-Briggs:
http://www.myersbriggs.org/home.htm?bhcp=1
https://www.41q.com/
"What Color is Your Parachute" in prior post also has a personality test, as I recall. Maybe worth saying explicitly that these tests are not like the IQ tests some of us have taken in school -- there is no 'win', no 'good' or 'bad' -- trying instead to discover are you an intro- or extro-vert; do you listen well, do you like public speaking, etc.
2-27 3.58 here. I have done those tests. I always get teacher, professor, librarian. That way lies madness. I was hoping for something with a more field-specific information.
Everyone I know who has left the academy works in computers. I find coding tedious at best, so that is not an option for me.
3-1, thank you for the advice on government jobs. I have been applying on USAJobs to anything that seemed relevant (usually DOE) for years. I never qualify.
Practical consideration: Every time I ever applied to a faculty position, I used the Interfolio.com service. It saved my references the trouble of having to write and send a letter anew for each application, while protecting confidentiality, etc. So, now that I'm applying for other jobs, some through employment agencies, how do I make Interfolio mesh with their system?
Usually, you have to fill out some kind of form on the company website and upload your resume to it. You don't always know the name of the person conducting the search. But Interfolio doesn't give you any URL to supply in the fields for references. You have to initiate delivery, and it only allows for delivery by mail or email.
Also, the business types usually ask for email addresses and phone numbers, like they expect to talk to someone, rather than reading letters of multiple pages. They probably don't want unsolicited documents, which might get lost. In turn, I'm pretty sure that the last thing my references want is to be jolted from their writing by a call from some HR rep who doesn't even know what Classics is. I've tried putting the university HR number under references. That way they can get an employment verification, at least. However, HR can't comment on my actual work experience.
You don't have to (and probably should not) use your academic references for non-academic positions. You certainly should not use the same letters you use to apply to academic positions. Non-ac hiring managers often do want to speak over the phone to an actual human being. There's really no way around that.
I'm alt-ac and have been on the employer side of a job search in which 95% of the candidates were coming from academia, many holding PhDs. Do not send the same letters that you use for teaching positions. Ideally, you should let your references know that you are applying for a job outside of the traditional teaching sphere and be sure that they are amenable to being a reference. You'll likely have to provide their email and phone number for the employer to call if they wish to follow up on your references. Always follow the outline set forth by the employer for how to submit your materials. We've ruled out people because they simply did not follow the directions we purposefully outlined in the job ad. If you have an advanced graduate degree, then we know you have the ability to read the application requirements and directions but chose not to for whatever reason.
Also, and this is important, and I am surprised at what I have seen -- be sure that your cover letter explains why you are interested in said position and what your long-term career goals are in that field. Even if it is a half-truth, expand. If you are applying for a job in publishing, say how it always has interested you and that you have found you would like to have a career in publishing. If it is in consulting work of any type, do the same. Too often the letters are only about your background and that you'll be a "fit" because you studied classics and can read, write, and research anything. OK. Fine. But why should the employer take a chance on you when many people, including those outside of Classics can claim that they have the same skill set? Be more specific and try to express how your particular skills might flourish and contribute to the employer and their field. We've ruled people out before because their letters were so tepid toward the intended job path that it felt as if we would be a placeholder job until they found another teaching gig. It's all about framing. Don't go overboard, but there definitely will be some faking of enthusiasm for a new career path that you have to put in there. And we know that -- and still want to see it in your letter. We know that there is a chance that an academic might go back to teaching after some time. But we hope if they have "interest" in our field, that perhaps they will stay in the position. We don't want to sense from the cover letter that you will definitely jump ship as soon as possible.
It's a little messed up, but isn't all of this?
Dear Recruiter,
You've got my resume and my tailored cover letter. I completed your online application and watched your software mine it for keywords like "French" and "Power Point." It extracted my employment history almost like magic.
Why in Hades did you email me this "questionnaire" asking me WHAT I ALREADY TOLD YOU? What was unclear about "Yes, I am a citizen" the first time?
Were you that kid in my Roman Civ class who would rather have his teeth pulled than do the reading? Also, it's "should there be," not "should their be," genius.
9:14 PM, can you access JSTOR? This article about consulting may help.
https://daily.jstor.org/consultants-recommending-consultations-100-years/
Some large institutions like UCLA offer their students and faculty a free subscription to IT training websites like lynda.com, where you can watch all kinds of instructional videos. If you're thinking of going in a different career direction, you seriously should at least check it out while it's free. Even if you don't want to learn to code, you might look at some of the different careers lynda.com outlines on their "Learning Paths" page. If nothing else, it gives you better vocabulary to be able to talk about what you can do and would like to do. Just a thought.
Another couple of useful resources for exploring alt-ac or non-ac careers:
https://www.imaginephd.com/ (includes surveys to determine your interests and abilities and lets you explore jobs and look at sample job ads in different subject areas)
https://www.hercjobs.org/ (which I've also had people recommend for dual-career considerations, as you can search by geographic region and job type/discipline)
I also second LinkedIn as a great resource not just for networking but also for finding job ads and suggestions for jobs you might be interested in based on your profile, experiences, and connections. There are also far more academics on there than I expected.
A couple of quick suggestions:
IT side: Instructional Design roles (learn some relevant software packages)
HR side: Learning and Development roles (relatively cheap to train sideways into this)
Is it bad form to apply for the same job two times? The first time, all I got was the LinkedIn auto confirmation email. Not another word. That was a month ago and the posting's expired now, so I just assumed someone else got the job. Well, this week they posted a new ad. The new ad is more verbose, but it's clearly the same job title and description. I mean, what if I was the only person who applied and they hated me so much they started a new search?
@2:30. Yes, apply again. If it irks them that you are doing so, you will not get the job -- which is the exact same situation you would be in if you didn't apply.
Recommending the site www.askamanager.org as an excellent resource for the non-academic work environment and for tips on such things as cover letters, resumes, etc. Also for general hilarity that proves academia is not the only place to find weird and sometimes deranged colleagues. I learned a lot from it.
https://www.chronicle.com/article/We-Need-All-Those-PhDs-in/243710?cid=wcontentgrid_hp_9
Read the part about the career fair.
Post a Comment